Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 2

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Starting a second thread as the first one is still very busy, albeit it's veered off in a few directions...

Original article

https://www.thetimes.com/article/e6465c9e-d462-48cb-a73e-74480059a1f3?shareToken=05bf599cd4a2376fe3ce83cdce607100

Labour's plan only works, i.e. it raises money for the state sector, if the private sector doesn't collapse.

Private schools are not going to vanish, you cannot believe that?

God the endless lies about "tax breaks". Not taxing something isn't the same as a tax break. There is a legal definition of a tax break and exemption of education from VAT doesn't come into that definition

As someone else above said, it would have been quite easy to put the country’s best interests first with an instant attempt to rejoin the Single Market or Customs Union and target low inflation and genuine growth.

Quite easy 🤦‍♀️

I didn't say they were. But it'll only take a contraction of around 15% to ensure that this policy raises nothing at all, because all of the tax levied on the remaining 85% will need to pay for roughly an extra 100,000 places at state schools.

Some private schools are not going to vanish: schools like Eton will actually be making a profit out of this, which shows how well this has been thought through.
Some schools will vanish: mainly smaller prep and special schools outside the south-east. We should see the first wave of closures being announced in April.

@Strikeoutnow - the emphasis is on the word genuine “attempt” at closer ties with our immediate neighbours which would strengthen the whole Eurozone and would actually have worldwide implications.
For all the social justice warriors out there, the European countries being the countries with the most rights for the more vulnerable in society.
Yet here some of you championing a policy on private schools which is in direct contravention of fundamental European principles and human rights. Hypocrisy some!!!

I wonder how many of these threads have actually made people who were on the fence or indifferent to become pro the policy? Some of the posts are just 🤯 & the legitimate posts get lost.

Who are you to say who has a legitimate comment?

Boris Johnson
spent £112000 just renovating his flat which is more than KS accepted in the period since 2019.

But Labour came in on a promise to be different. That's the point! They said that they were so morally superior to the Tories yet have proven not to be.

It's funny that in the private sector I worked in, even 15 years ago, there was a firm limit of £50 on gifts or hospitality we were allowed to accept. Anything more than that was seen as conflict of interest and potential corruption.
The acceptable amount for a politician elected to public office to accept is ZERO.

What is very clear is that this Labour Government has favoured tobacco and vaping companies and big banks - look at their share prices! Banks are laughing all the way home with the spread on the sticky inflation directly created by Reeves incompetent budget.
Yet vulnerable autistic DC with parents who are making huge sacrifices to give them some sort of an education at all costs to them personally so as not to write them off permanently with autistic burnout and chronic health issues - those are fair game being thrown under the proverbial bus!
They should hang their heads in shame!

Independent sector will not collapse, this policy will not touch the bigger public schools and barely affect the most affluent parents. This is not one step towards getting rid of private schools it is just widening the gap.

It will affect those with two working parents who made other sacrifices or had family help to just about afford fees. Those parents are now more likely to move closer to good state schools, pushing up house prices in catchment areas, pricing out poorer families. Those parents are now likely to pay for tutoring to get into grammar schools (if they live near a grammar school area) or one parent may now not work such long hours (and therefore pay less income tax). Their children will move into state schools already struggling with large classes, poor facilities (and no longer able to use local private school due to cut backs) and lack of teachers. Smaller or cheaper private schools will collapse or merge (happening right now in Surrey) pushing more kids into the state sector.

This is not even mentioning the midyear disruption of children's education (this is not just rumour, I personally know of several students moving schools, or being home schooled from this term) as well as the social and MH implications, let alone the thousands of SEN pupils who will be significantly adversely affected by moving schools.

The policy is utter madness but envy is a powerful emotion.

Oh and the idea that teachers will move from private to state is just laughable.

All donations for politicians of all parties are on public record. Not sure what this has to do with your private sector job.

I find it annoying that some members of the government have started referring to this as "closing a loophole". A loophole is something that allows a reduction in tax liability below the level intended by the lawmakers. This is not a loophole, any more than zero-rating books is a loophole. It was a positive decision that, in compliance with EU law, we would not tax education.

Contrary to what many supporters of this policy seem to think, there has never been any specific exemption for independent schools. The exemption was for education generally, which is why universities and further education colleges also benefit from this alleged "loophole".

In 2015 Greece imposed a 23% VAT charge on independent school fees. This led to schools closing, teachers being made redundant and state schools being overwhelmed. Greece had to reverse the policy, but research suggests it is still suffering long term damage from this policy. I hope that doesn't happen here, but there is no guarantee that it won't.

Sure the big trusts with multiple schools and expanding properties (like the one I went to and taught in) can find some way of accessing that trust money to not have to pass the tax onto the customers, surely they have a lot of financial savvy in those big London offices?

Also wouldn’t it make sense for the smaller SEN private schools to become SEN state free schools open to all children with the relevant needs on their EHCP?

No because Labour want to get rid of SEN state schools through their inclusion programme. They will force mainstream state schools to keep SEN kids, with only tiny increase in funding, then they can close the specialist SEN schools as they are too expensive to run.

This sentence shows how much you really don't understand the sector "Sure the big trusts with multiple schools and expanding properties (like the one I went to and taught in) can find some way of accessing that trust money to not have to pass the tax onto the customers, surely they have a lot of financial savvy in those big London offices". Most indy schools are precisely that, independent. They aren't part of big trusts.

I know one private school that has circa 1000 pupils that is on the verge of walking into the local council and handing the keys over.

They have been stuffed by VAT and business rate changes. I doubt the council have the money to keep all the old buildings going and pay for the special needs provision on top of the cost of normal education. This will likely negatively impact every child in the town not just those at the school.

It's a shame the communists in Whitehall have an education policy based on their ideology rather than what is actually best for kids.

“I find it annoying that some members of the government have started referring to this as "closing a loophole".”

It is more than annoying to me, it is a classic “misrepresentation” in my opinion.

You cannot be pro EU and pro the human rights act AND simultaneously be pro taxing education. You have to pick sides and decide what is more important. Is it really worth sacrificing the former? That is the decision the electorate need to make. And the politicians should stop misrepresenting the facts.

There are around 110k children in elite private schools. There are also over 100k children with SEND in private education. Again, you have to pick sides. You cannot have both. If you want to tax the elite private schools parents, you have to also decide that you are willing to throw many children with SEND under the bus.

But Labour want to roll back the free schools and academy programme so that schools fall back under LEA control.

Where have they said they want to close special schools?

Read the inclusion plans then look at what they DONT say.
It is obvious that if you stop sending kids to specialist schools then after X years there will be no cohort so therefore the schools will close and government will save tons of money. They are incredibly expensive to run

It's very disingenuous to describe it as closing a loophole.

But the electorate has already decided both on leaving the EU and VAT on school fees. They voted for both.

I'm not sure the HRA would poll very favourably either not least because Reform and the Tories would wrap it up in the migrant crisis and ECHR.

Sure the big trusts with multiple schools and expanding properties (like the one I went to and taught in) can find some way of accessing that trust money to not have to pass the tax onto the customers, surely they have a lot of financial savvy in those big London offices?

As another poster says, most independent schools are not in big trusts. For those that are such as GDST, much of the trust's money is locked up in restricted funds, which means the money can only be spent for the purposes for which it was given. If, for example, money has been donated towards improving the sports facilities, it cannot legally be used to subsidise fees.

But Labour want to roll back the free schools and academy programme so that schools fall back under LEA control

I haven't seen anything that says they want to do this, but they have said they are going to make academies and free schools follow the national curriculum. Evidence from a number of studies into high performing education systems suggests this is a very bad idea.

There will be have others on the fence who have become anti-VAT policy, for example when they read about the impact on vulnerable SEN DC or realise that not everyone is in a position where they can just find an extra 20%. Many people on here are parents and hopefully can appreciate how parents can be angry about something that is painful for their own children. Most of my friends with DC in private school are wealthy and whilst they might be a bit irked by the policy, forking out the VAT doesn't impact their lives at all. That is not representative of everyone and the breadth of the impact is better captured on these threads.

Why do you oppose free choice in education "on a fundamental societal basis"?