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Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 2

990 replies

ICouldBeVioletSky · 01/01/2025 20:05

Starting a second thread as the first one is still very busy, albeit it's veered off in a few directions...

Original article

https://www.thetimes.com/article/e6465c9e-d462-48cb-a73e-74480059a1f3?shareToken=05bf599cd4a2376fe3ce83cdce607100

OP posts:
Thread gallery
44
twistyizzy · 04/01/2025 13:40

Whymeee · 04/01/2025 13:27

To people comparing UK and EU:
UK is probably also the only "first-world" country not using textbooks in state schools.
Also parents in state schools get very vague feedback about their kids' results antil mock GCSEs when it's too late.
If you are genuinely worried about standards of education, you may funnel your energy there as it impacts 93% of the population.

Or if it doesn't impact your DC, it's fine to look the other way?

Edited

Why are you assuming parents with kids in Indy schools have never used state? The majority mix and match state + indy eg state primary/indy secondary etc.
You are just jumping to false conclusions.
The issue is that VAT simply won't do anything to raise standards in state sector. You have been sold a lie.

Whymeee · 04/01/2025 13:42

Boohoo76 · 04/01/2025 13:37

My DC’s state school uses lots of textbooks. His bag is so bloody heavy because of them. My other DC’s private school uses an iPad for each child with the lesson plans/curriculum uploaded on there. I prefer the latter.

Is this state school a grammar by any chance?

Boohoo76 · 04/01/2025 14:00

Whymeee · 04/01/2025 13:42

Is this state school a grammar by any chance?

Yes, but the point is that many private schools are not using text books either and have moved to online resources. My DC in private school can write notes directly onto the resources (using stylus pen). Everything is saved in the Cloud so there is no danger of revision notes being lost. That should be the aim in state schools, not textbooks.

SabrinaThwaite · 04/01/2025 14:44

Everything is saved in the Cloud so there is no danger of revision notes being lost. That should be the aim in state schools, not textbooks.

That’s great if you can access that at home when you need it, isn’t it? But a significant number of children can’t. It was one of the things highlighted by the Children's Commissioner in light of Covid online schooling.

Ofcom estimate that between 1.14m and 1.78m children in total in the UK have no home access to a laptop, desktop or tablet

www.childrenscommissioner.gov.uk/blog/children-without-internet-access-during-lockdown/

CautiousLurker01 · 04/01/2025 16:14

twistyizzy · 04/01/2025 13:40

Why are you assuming parents with kids in Indy schools have never used state? The majority mix and match state + indy eg state primary/indy secondary etc.
You are just jumping to false conclusions.
The issue is that VAT simply won't do anything to raise standards in state sector. You have been sold a lie.

Yes, we did stat primary to age 7 for both; private to 16, state for 6th form. Most people I know have mixed and matched, some doing state secondary and then private 6th form. Only a minority of people I know dod private 3-18.

Boohoo76 · 04/01/2025 17:12

SabrinaThwaite · 04/01/2025 14:44

Everything is saved in the Cloud so there is no danger of revision notes being lost. That should be the aim in state schools, not textbooks.

That’s great if you can access that at home when you need it, isn’t it? But a significant number of children can’t. It was one of the things highlighted by the Children's Commissioner in light of Covid online schooling.

Ofcom estimate that between 1.14m and 1.78m children in total in the UK have no home access to a laptop, desktop or tablet

www.childrenscommissioner.gov.uk/blog/children-without-internet-access-during-lockdown/

My DC’s school provides each pupil from year 3 upwards with an iPad. It was previously year 7 upwards but this changed after lockdown one and the school realised how much easier it was to get the seniors online so they introduced it for the younger ones. I commented on it at the time on Mumsnet and was told that some state schools did this (i.e. your DC’s private school is not special - never said it was). My argument at the time was that it should be something that the Government looks to implement in all state schools. I still stand by that. Seeing all the bloody textbooks that my DC has to carry around at this state school has not discouraged me from that view.

And there’s the thing, Bridget Phillipson gloats about how she has never visited a private school. Well that shows how negligent she is as an education secretary. Not only is she responsible for all schools, she should be looking at the education sector as a whole to see what ideas could be implemented across it. For example, all through state schools have started to become a thing in the county that I live in. A concept very much borrowed from the private sector. Stop demonising the private sector and the parents that use it. Work with it to improve schools across the board.

And as far as the funding goes for implementing technology across the state sector, well all we keep hearing is about the fall in birth rate and how schools are/will be closing or reducing the number of classes. That should mean that there is some extra funding available - i.e. the funding per pupils can go up as there are less of them.

Araminta1003 · 04/01/2025 17:14

@tortoise18 - of course the elite private schools are going ahead with expensive capex projects, they will now be able to claim the full 20 per cent VAT back on those. They are incentivised to spend more on facilities now but less on staff. They can also claim back any past capex VAT for projects above 250k - I think it was going back 10 years. They are likely to cut bursaries and staffing costs in the future, but go all out on facilities in the future as a direct result of this policy.
Not sure why the Times thinks this is a newsworthy story. Perhaps they should have explained the VAT implication of capex slightly getter. Because it’s the taxpayer who will be paying for it and the accounts of private schools are readily available online for all to see. So when the pittance paid in VAT by the most elite private schools becomes apparent, who will be frothing the most?

It is what happens with true luxury products & services too- the harder to access, the more elite/sought after it becomes by a select few. They will also likely up rents to outside users for those same facilities. To some extent they have to anyway because of how the legislation is drafted. The intention was probably to stop them running profitable holiday clubs etc to make up for the VAT but it just passes the cost on to more normal families using these schools, including council organised county youth orchestras. Making those also less accessible to poorer kids because there isn’t enough funding for bursaries for all.

Labour has essentially decided to treat all independent schools like a Rolex when in reality many are just a supermarket own brand basic watch teaching some children to tell the time. The direct result is that less children will learn to tell the time well as many can no longer afford the cheap supermarket version, but the Rolex version just became more sought after with even longer waiting lists. Not least because the top now get to mingle amongst their own almost entirely.

Sasskitty · 04/01/2025 17:15

‘ Not least because the top now get to mingle amongst their own almost entirely.’

Thank God for that.

SabrinaThwaite · 04/01/2025 18:12

Boohoo76 · 04/01/2025 17:12

My DC’s school provides each pupil from year 3 upwards with an iPad. It was previously year 7 upwards but this changed after lockdown one and the school realised how much easier it was to get the seniors online so they introduced it for the younger ones. I commented on it at the time on Mumsnet and was told that some state schools did this (i.e. your DC’s private school is not special - never said it was). My argument at the time was that it should be something that the Government looks to implement in all state schools. I still stand by that. Seeing all the bloody textbooks that my DC has to carry around at this state school has not discouraged me from that view.

And there’s the thing, Bridget Phillipson gloats about how she has never visited a private school. Well that shows how negligent she is as an education secretary. Not only is she responsible for all schools, she should be looking at the education sector as a whole to see what ideas could be implemented across it. For example, all through state schools have started to become a thing in the county that I live in. A concept very much borrowed from the private sector. Stop demonising the private sector and the parents that use it. Work with it to improve schools across the board.

And as far as the funding goes for implementing technology across the state sector, well all we keep hearing is about the fall in birth rate and how schools are/will be closing or reducing the number of classes. That should mean that there is some extra funding available - i.e. the funding per pupils can go up as there are less of them.

Even if you provide every student with a tablet or a laptop, what if they don’t have internet access at home? There’s a clear link between poverty and digital exclusion

Boohoo76 · 04/01/2025 18:17

SabrinaThwaite · 04/01/2025 18:12

Even if you provide every student with a tablet or a laptop, what if they don’t have internet access at home? There’s a clear link between poverty and digital exclusion

You provide discounted or free internet access for low income families.

Heathbear · 04/01/2025 18:31

SabrinaThwaite · 04/01/2025 18:12

Even if you provide every student with a tablet or a laptop, what if they don’t have internet access at home? There’s a clear link between poverty and digital exclusion

You provide 5g enabled tablets or laptops.

ICouldBeVioletSky · 04/01/2025 18:57

SabrinaThwaite · 04/01/2025 18:12

Even if you provide every student with a tablet or a laptop, what if they don’t have internet access at home? There’s a clear link between poverty and digital exclusion

www.o2.co.uk/national-databank

OP posts:
CautiousLurker01 · 04/01/2025 19:02

Boohoo76 · 04/01/2025 18:17

You provide discounted or free internet access for low income families.

Which many companies already do, I believe?

SabrinaThwaite · 04/01/2025 19:23

CautiousLurker01 · 04/01/2025 19:02

Which many companies already do, I believe?

Not very effectively then.

https://www.goodthingsfoundation.org/policy-and-research/research-and-evidence/research-2024/deep-poverty-and-digital-exclusion

winterrabbit · 04/01/2025 22:04

Climbinghigher · 02/01/2025 12:03

The term 'ambitious parents' is making me shudder. We're Oxbridge parents, two of the kids went to a private school for some of their education so I suppose we should be classed in that group. I hope I have been the opposite of an ambitious parent (think my grown up kids would say so).

I support the Labour plans (and barely scraped school fees together when the kids were in private).

No way that an "Oxbridge" parent is not seriously ambitious and sharp elbowed for their kids. No way. I know loads of smug "Oxbridge" parents who think themselves as superior as their kids have managed to get an outstanding education either in state or grammar.

Heathbear · 04/01/2025 22:06

winterrabbit · 04/01/2025 22:04

No way that an "Oxbridge" parent is not seriously ambitious and sharp elbowed for their kids. No way. I know loads of smug "Oxbridge" parents who think themselves as superior as their kids have managed to get an outstanding education either in state or grammar.

You may have met a particular subset of Oxbridge parents. Not all Oxbridge grads are the same.

winterrabbit · 04/01/2025 22:07

NiftyTraybake · 02/01/2025 08:49

Eh, I'll accept that. So their level of corruption is currently less than the previous lot, still an improvement.

Er, rubbish! And the hypocrisy is through the roof! Criticising the Tories whilst getting up to far worse. Disgusting.

winterrabbit · 04/01/2025 22:16

Jaimenotjamie · 01/01/2025 22:59

Such a stupid jealous view

@winterrabbit frankly I find a lot of the language being used around this issue quite repulsive.

‘jealous’

‘spiteful’

There are many many many high earners (inc me) who disagree with private education on a fundamental societal basis. And even if not able to afford it, opposing it doesn’t make you jealous. It’s just gross, superior language.

Well I find a lot of the gloating posts around the introduction of tax on education revolting as well as spiteful and jealous. Never seen people take such an interest and delight in something that doesn't impact them, as if there is some moral high ground in squeezing a bit more blood out of the stone.

winterrabbit · 04/01/2025 22:31

Heathbear · 04/01/2025 22:06

You may have met a particular subset of Oxbridge parents. Not all Oxbridge grads are the same.

Why go to Oxbridge if you're not ambitious? Loads of other places provide the same level of education; people just want the prestige of Oxbridge.

tortoise18 · 04/01/2025 22:37

winterrabbit · 04/01/2025 22:31

Why go to Oxbridge if you're not ambitious? Loads of other places provide the same level of education; people just want the prestige of Oxbridge.

You know the parents and the children are different people, right? Perfectly possible for a smart, motivated student to go from state school to Oxbridge without any parental involvement, let alone "ambition".

ICouldBeVioletSky · 04/01/2025 22:55

winterrabbit · 04/01/2025 22:07

Er, rubbish! And the hypocrisy is through the roof! Criticising the Tories whilst getting up to far worse. Disgusting.

Quite! This is just the latest from our squeaky clean Labour friends - am actually struggling to think of any Tory sleaze allegations (of which there were many) that come close:

Revealed: Tulip Siddiq, her ‘despot’ aunt and another freebie property

www.thetimes.com/article/ec5fa9c9-0465-40e3-a2ed-df4074030448?shareToken=52517f4d669dcdbb9187f41a326d211e

OP posts:
Sasskitty · 04/01/2025 23:15

‘Hasina stands accused by the new administration in Dhaka of “massacres, killings and crimes against humanity”, including the deaths of at least 800 protesters. She is also accused of corruption and embezzlement. Siddiq, 42, is among several family members said to have benefited, although she denies wrongdoing. Sir Keir Starmer has said that she retains his confidence.’

Says it all. Starmer’s Labour Party is not only incompetent, it’s horribly corrupt 🤮

Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 2
Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 2
Sasskitty · 04/01/2025 23:16

..

Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 2
Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 2
tortoise18 · 04/01/2025 23:26

Not sure what the corrupt former president of Bangladesh has to do with private school taxation, maybe just change the thread title to "I Hate Labour And Remember Nothing About The Last Fifteen Years" for a more accurate description.

ICouldBeVioletSky · 04/01/2025 23:56

tortoise18 · 04/01/2025 23:26

Not sure what the corrupt former president of Bangladesh has to do with private school taxation, maybe just change the thread title to "I Hate Labour And Remember Nothing About The Last Fifteen Years" for a more accurate description.

I’ll let you in to a secret @tortoise18: it’s possible to be of the view that both Labour AND the Tories are disgracefully unfit to govern.

There are too many Labour “supporters” who seem to be blindly seal-clapping them based on little more than they are Not The Tories.

They stand to be bitterly, bitterly disappointed if they expect any meaningful improvements from the current incumbents.

OP posts: