“Avoid” GCSEs for extremely bright DD?

[TeensMom]

DD is extremely bright, but also very driven and cut-throat competitive.

DH was educated overseas and can’t understand why we would drag DD through the mill of GCSEs, originally designed as an exit exam for school leavers, at a time when she could be continuing to learn new topics (rather than spending months rote-learning topics she’s already covered) and developing her critical thinking and debating/essay writing skills.

I devoted Years 8 to 11 to a self-imposed 16 hours a day 365 days a year regime to ace my GCSEs, which paid off in my grades, but took away four of my teenage years and left me entering Year 12 without the social skills or maturity to negotiate my sixth form friendships and settle down to study my ‘A’ level courses.

After an emotionally disastrous 13+ Scholarship term (got one, failed 2, best friend got both she applied for and didn’t fail any), we can see that competition with her school friends over anticipated GCSE grades (all aiming for 10 or 11 grade 9s) will be extremely destructive for her self-esteem and is likely to lead to an eating disorder, self-harm or worse.

We’re considering taking her out of the British system and instead sending her to a well-regarded international school nearby, where her first public exam would be the IB in Year 13.

Any advice from other families who have been in a similar position or anyone involved with university applications in the UK, Europe or USA?

As the offspring of parents who had equally strong bonkers views about what consituted success academically (their grandson's 8 9s and 2 8s at GCSE were "dreadful", "appalling", "terrible" and likely to blight his life, to give you an idea) can I point out that

1. for an academic child GCSEs (and A Levels) are comparatively easy
2. rebuilding your self esteem, self belief and severe anxiety resulting from the desire for perfectionism is not easy and takes years to achieve

I am not entirely convinced the OP will return, but the French system definitely has a serious exam that they take either in Year 10 or 11 (I am not entirely sure).

I don’t know if it’s the same as a public exam, but good marks are required if you want to proceed to prestigious BACs.

And, I agree, GCSEs aren’t really that hard or stressful if you are extremely bright.

Are you sure she’s “extremely bright” or you just want her to he?

How has she managed to fail exams if she is so bright? I’m also baffled why you’re making such a big deal over GCSE’s. For someone extremely bright it would be like taking an easy quiz.

Sounds to me like your family is feeding these ideas of toxic competitive behaviour and unhealthy work ethics. 16 hours for GCSE’s?

Bizzare! Poor girl. Odd family mindset

"I devoted Years 8 to 11 to a self-imposed 16 hours a day 365 days a year regime to ace my GCSEs, which paid off in my grades, but took away four of my teenage years and left me entering Year 12 without the social skills or maturity "

I have been a teaching assistant working with students studying for their GCSEs for 15+ years in a range of settings. In my work I have encountered students studying from many walks of life, ages etc. I can tell you, I have never met anyone who needed to study that much to get their GCSEs.

I work now with a lot of students who come in having not done any formal study for years, study with us for one year doing maybe 2 hours taught study and 2 hours self guided study a week per subject and pass with a 5-6 or higher in everything. Even if you were doing 10 subjects - that would equate to 40 hours a week.

Your regime equates to 16 * 7 = 112 hours a week. If you needed to study this much, you either had decided that whatever anyone says about what grades you needed, you would consider any GCSE where you didn't get full marks a fail, or you have very serious learning difficulties which would make it impossible to pass without this effort. While your effort is commendable, thinking your daughter would fail her GCSEs if she doesn't study as much as you did is WILD. Just lower your expectations to her getting what she actually needs for her line of work, and lower your work requirements to fit that, and let her have a normal education, not aiming for ridiculously high grades and get the qualifications that will actually count for UK jobs and unis.

I'd use the GCSE years to teach.her a balance. At some point in life we all have to learn that skill of balancing life and work, balancing perfectionism against mental health.

Help her come up with a sensible time table and make sure she has time each day when she does something active and something fun

Learning how to revise /study in a healthy and balanced way is a key skill set.

How did you parents not notice you were studying too hard?

I grew up in the US, did an IB diploma, then came straight to the UK for uni - this was all back in the mid '00s before IB boomed here in the UK and it was never an issue. I stayed and in 15+ years of a successful career I can't remember a single time a lack of GCSEs was an issue in any way. Universities and private secondaries/sixth forms admit students educated in foreign systems all the time, and of course employers regularly hire internationally-educated people.

I've somewhat made peace with the UK education system and the centering of exam qualifications from such an early stage, but not entirely and I have truly hated GCSEs from the parent side. I wouldn't select a school solely based on avoiding GCSEs but I would absolutely consider an international school if it was the right fit for the child overall. And I do currently have two at a school that does GCSEs but then offers both IB and A levels.

My biggest concern would be the ability to move schools during GCSE years if for any reason the schools you're looking at don't end up being right and how easy it would be to go back to state in year 12 (for financial reasons or because your DD wanted to).

I devoted Years 8 to 11 to a self-imposed 16 hours a day 365 days a year regime to ace my GCSEs, which paid off in my grades, but took away four of my teenage years and left me entering Year 12 without the social skills or maturity to negotiate my sixth form friendships and settle down to study my ‘A’ level courses.

bloody hell. I spent the (later) years drinking, smoking weed and having the time of my life and still got top marks. GCSE’s are pretty easy for top performers. I’d suggest if you did this then there’s probably quite a lot of pressure on her. Are you both SEN?

Why do you think she is extremely bright and driven if she failed 2 out of 3 13+ exams.
You are kicking the can down the road instead of teaching her to be resilient

I don't think I did 16 minutes total revision for all my GCSEs combined, and got A*-B in everything while being far from academically gifted. 16 hour days for multiple years is an absolutely bonkers waste of a childhood!

If your child is as gifted as you say, GCSEs will be a breeze.

If she's "extremely bright" then GCSEs are a breeze. I did no revision for mine and came out with all A/A*s. Why do you assume she'll struggle?

It doesn’t sound like your DD is extremely bright and competitive, because if so she’d surely thrive under an opportunity like GCSEs. I think you’re describing someone very anxious?

tbh I don’t think the gcse/ IB is a very important decision- it’s clear she’d be fine doing an IB as many do. The most important issue should be what she wants to do and which school she wants to go to, at her age

It was 13+ scholarship - she got one but not the other 2.

I was the first year to do GCSE's.
Was out most Friday and Saturday nights, had ponies, swam competitively at County level and got mostly A's and a couple of B's (no such thing as * then)
You don't have to work so hard unless you really really struggle academically and even then if its that challenging no amount of study will help

no matter which route you choose it sounds like some counselling and support might be helpful now.

Getting top GCSE grades is simply not very difficult for clever kids. Why did you work 16 hours a day for yours? Totally unnecessary for all but real dullards.

God op you sound extremely dramatic yourself!

Dd1 got 8s and 9s yes worked hard from the feb onwards but she nor anyone else did 4 years of 16 hour days ?! And assuming your Dd will develop serious mental health conditions due to GCSEs ? All very strange!

OP Did you send her to the school that she passed the scholarship exam?
Does failing the scholarship exam mean that she passed for a normal place ?
Scholarships are often for a small percentage deduction of fees- how much did you need that small deduction ?
Did her prep school push you to enter her so that they had the kudos of being able to sell that result to future parents rather than being the best for her as an individual ? Or was it for your bragging rights and proof that she is very bright?
When her results upset her (I assume that’s what you mean by emotional distress), did it make you reconsider your school choices? Your DD’s reaction is very normal especially if she’s not very confident or went to a prep school that pushes kids into higher status schools so that their leavers destinations look good to future parents and they can maintain their reputation and continue to attract bright kids.

Whether she does GCSEs or IB, it’s going to be stressful and if she knows the story of you doing 16 hours of study a day for 4 years then it’s going to be even more so. Not having GCSEs is fine as long as she takes higher level qualifications like IB, degree but if she’s mentally fragile then having GCSEs will give her more choices later (college, A-level, IB etc )

Only you know if the school attracts families and kids who are very competitive and see straights 9s as the goal or if your DD’s personality is that she wants straight 9s as that’s her personality and friend group plus you might be piling on the pressure by telling her stories like the 4 years of 16 hour days. (I hope that she doesn’t know the story) Even if she doesn’t do GCSEs, some kids will get competitive about tests, end of year exams etc at school and care deeply about stuff like what sets they are in. If that’s your DD’s personality then I think that you might be in for a rough ride anyway.

I hope you’re not trotting out your bonkers theories to her?!

Hmmm, GCSE's are a two year course.
To spend 16 hours a day over four years to cover a course that is two years about two hours a day is bonkers.

Hopefully your DD is much better equipped to cope with the education system.

Big step backwards.

Thanks Mumsnet, some good advice there.

Rest assured, I will never tell her how hard I worked myself as, with hindsight, it was a ridiculous waste of time and effort and I would never want her to think it was normal or expected.

We’ve already had a chat about having realistic expectations. It’s just hard, as around a quarter of her school and all her cousins got a full house of 8s and 9s, or even straight 9s, in the last two years, and when we talk about having realistic expectations she thinks I’m telling her she’s not good enough to achieve this.

I hear you RedSky! Trying very hard not to replicate this in our own family.

I’m afraid I quite strongly feel from what you’ve said that it your and your husband’s attitude to education that is not helpful to your daughter rather than any issue she has….
she doesn’t need to be learning any more widely etc etc. neither does she need to be losing 4 years of her life.
you say she’s “failed” but her friend didn’t. This isn’t nice language to use really and it’s like you’ve set her up that only “winning” and “9s” is ok.
You have a role as her parents to say (something like whatever you agree with) trying your best is what we ask and we’ll be really proud of you do, as well as looking after yourself.
it sounds like she can do well but you won’t want her to “fail” and get less than 9s so are trying to find another option? How about supporting her to feel she’s done really well and doesn’t need to work all hours?

The average GCSE grades for successful Oxbridge applicants are only 8 8/9 grades (and that is an average, some will have less). Keep reiterating that she really doesn’t need straight 9s. I would also point out that there is an element of luck in getting the top grades, as anyone can have a bad day, a sleepless night before the exam, a headache, have all the questions on their strongest or weakest part of the subject… Her grade doesn’t define her ability, just how she performed on one day.

Apart from working on her self esteem, you could try helping her develop healthy study practices so she doesn’t burn out. Teach her to work smart. Exam and essay/question technique, research skills, critical analysis, revision techniques etc are the most important skills to learn from GCSEs. The rest is just a memory test. A bright DC should really be able to learn those up in class but maybe you could boost her self esteem by going over them with her. If she wants to get ahead by cementing knowledge now to help with memorising facts, she could perhaps prepare a spider diagram/flash cards at the end of each topic. Some weeks there may be nothing to do. Don’t let her spend a lot of time on it, maybe an hour a week. Just enough to give her confidence that she is well prepared and to show that you don’t need to spend hours revising to make a lot of progress.

Agree, nobody needs more than 8 GCSES, maybe 9 for safety.

Hi, OP -

I am a former admissions tutor in a STEM School in a Russell Group university. We are in the tier just below COWI.

Firstly, I see no pedagogical or logistical problems with your IB plan. It is unusual to do IB without GCSEs, but UK admissions tutors should know how to assess the necessary English and numeracy qualifications from every school in the land.

Furthermore, whilst@Octavia64 is correct about maths content, we have not found this to be an impediment. We require Advanced Maths of IB applicants and strongly encourage FM in A Level applicants. An internal study showed that our IB students more than hold their own, performing slightly better than A Level students. The conjecture is that the emphasis on critical thinking throughout the curriculum and on logical thinking within the maths curriculum pays

Sorry, posted accidentally

…..pays off.

However, you are unclear how much the feelings of pressure and competitiveness are centred within your DD and how much they emanate from her friendship group - or are influenced by you. Of the three sources, two will transfer to a new school.

I prefer IB to GCSE and A level. But for a stressed child, a big risk of doing only IB exams is going into them with a lack of experience.