“Avoid” GCSEs for extremely bright DD?

[TeensMom]

DD is extremely bright, but also very driven and cut-throat competitive.

DH was educated overseas and can’t understand why we would drag DD through the mill of GCSEs, originally designed as an exit exam for school leavers, at a time when she could be continuing to learn new topics (rather than spending months rote-learning topics she’s already covered) and developing her critical thinking and debating/essay writing skills.

I devoted Years 8 to 11 to a self-imposed 16 hours a day 365 days a year regime to ace my GCSEs, which paid off in my grades, but took away four of my teenage years and left me entering Year 12 without the social skills or maturity to negotiate my sixth form friendships and settle down to study my ‘A’ level courses.

After an emotionally disastrous 13+ Scholarship term (got one, failed 2, best friend got both she applied for and didn’t fail any), we can see that competition with her school friends over anticipated GCSE grades (all aiming for 10 or 11 grade 9s) will be extremely destructive for her self-esteem and is likely to lead to an eating disorder, self-harm or worse.

We’re considering taking her out of the British system and instead sending her to a well-regarded international school nearby, where her first public exam would be the IB in Year 13.

Any advice from other families who have been in a similar position or anyone involved with university applications in the UK, Europe or USA?

You seem to be caught in a vision of GCSEs that is either rote learning below your DD’s ability, and something that you have to drive yourself for 4 years in a life-wrecking ED-inducing competitive hot house.

The vast majority of very bright Uk teens manage the good / excellent grades they need for the next step in follow their ambitions with a normal healthy balance of academic work and social life.

I would focus on supporting her resilience, which might involve being less of an alarmist outlook yourself.

Agreed.

also the sooner she realises;

• perfection doesn’t exist
• there’s always someone better than you
• 100% in an exam doesn’t give you a perfect life
• balance is important

the better

Hey @TeensMom first of all I would say that there is no need, if you are bright, to work 16-hour days, 365 days a year to get all top grades in your GCSEs. I didn’t do that or anything like it and I have top grades in 11 O levels (yes I am old!). If you are smart and driven, the key is to revise smartly and work out what you need to do in the subjects where you need to work (things like MFL, maths, Eng lang or others may come easy to your DD and need little work).

I do accept that the culture of 10 x grade 9 can be destructive (and thank goodness even very-brainy DS2 didn't go there, but was happy with his mix of GCSE grades, as were we) and that very very few students will gain all 9s, but I do see that in certain schools it may be an issue, as you describe and fear.

Taking her out from GCSEs seems a bit drastic tho and there is a middle way: how about moving her to a state comp that offers a good range of subjects and good teaching. There is much less likely to be an environment of "we must get all 9s at any cost". She will still do very well, there will still be high achievers, and she may even get 10 x grade 9.

I would caution against your IB/no GCSEs idea. It is true that at one time, a student could leave education after GCSEs. But to my mind that doesn't mean they have no value. They are the only actual grade universities have for degree offers; and a grade 4 in maths and English is needed for many roles in the workplace. Yes, if you also have a post-16 qualification and a degree these may well carry more weight; but in fact I have never needed to prove my A level results for anything that I can think of, but when applying to train as and work as a teacher, ad also for other roles, I had to be prepared to show my GCSE/O level in maths and English.

What year is your DD in? Whereabouts are you? Are there good state schools (apologies, I am assuming from what you wrote in your OP that she is currently at a private school, tho it may of course be a state grammar) in your area?

Edited to add: I took too long to post and lots of others have posted similar! I cannot agree with the PP who says GCSEs are not needed - see my comment above about needing to show mine (they are O levels but hey).
You’ve had some great advice here @TeensMom so hopefully it is useful. Best of luck to your DD.

I moved to the UK to study at 21 with no GCSEs or A-levels. When asked for these, I just say I didn't do them and point to my Master's degree - no one has batted an eyelid in 20 years. I now work in a top global company earning six figures.

Plenty of kids go the IB route and do just fine. Plenty also go the GCSE/A-level route and do just fine. Just figure out which one you think is best for your child. (Personally, I'll be steering my kids towards IB as it gives them a broader education for longer, and better prepares them for unis outside of the UK).

I really don't think that much work is healthy. My DS has just started year 10, he is predicted all 8s and 9s. I very rarely see him doing homework, he would rather be razzing around on his bike, at the climbing wall, running or creating amazing inventions out of wood or coding. Kids need hobbies to function properly, she needs to balance her studies with work life balance or she will burn out.

If you had to revise that much for the old GCSEs I don't think you were that academic tbh. Or you put so much pressure on yourself it made you freeze.
Either way, your daughter is not you, what makes you think she wouldn't cope with GCSEs? The IB is stressful in many many ways.

16 hour days for gcse?!

If she's bright she should be able to get those grades without excessive revision.

It sounds like you're the one putting pressure on your DD.

The 11+ & 13+ exams aren't a reflection of how well someone will do in their GCSEs. GCSEs are probably easier than the 13+.

The risk of her developing a MH issue would be greater if you send her overseas to study during her teen years and away from her home and friends. Rather than support (not pressurise) her in the UK.

If she's "extremely bright" she'll be fine.
I don't understand why you would sidestep the main educational system in this country as she will not have any understandable benchmark.

Op it sounds like you’re seriously catastrophising unless she has mh issues.

I got all As and A*s for my 15 GCSEs and although I worked hard maybe couple hours a day from May onwards…. If you’re bright they really don’t take much effort. So I’d say you weren’t too bright if you spent 16 hours a day for 4 years revising for them…
A levels on the other hand I felt was a big step up. I think your daughter needs GCSEs if she wants to go onto further education afterwards.

I think if she's extremely bright and driven then she won't need to dedicate that much time to it. But I do wonder if you're maybe overestimating her academic abilities and that's why you're reluctant, in that she's been told by you and her father all her life she's very bright but actually academically so far she's failed two out of three entrance exams and you don't want her to sit GCSEs, perhaps because you know she's not naturally going to thrive there without a heck of a lot of work to achieve the required standard. Most kids who are naturally academic don't spend hours a day revising, they get on with life.

I also wonder how much of the above is from your own experience of years of overwork to achieve the grades you felt were appropriate, which suggest you weren't naturally academic either. Perhaps you recognise that and yourself in your daughter and can see it wasn't healthy and don't want that for her.

It might be an opportunity to think about where her strengths lie and make sure she knows that. She may be very bright in different ways but not academically, but if you skip the GCSEs, she's likely not going to miraculously ace A Levels. If anything, GCSEs are probably a chance to be realistic about her prospects in terms of examination results and what is realistic for her.

You are not sounding very well balanced, I think it would really help you to extrapolate from more than your own intense, unusual experience and any conclusions DH has drawn from listening to you. Look at all the people who got great grades and had fun, without eating disorders or losing 4yrs of their teenage lives.

Instead of tying yourself in knots to minimise the exams DD takes (having put her in the 13+, which is a bit contradictory), try to teach her about balance, take the pressure off and help her learn how to do exams without crumbling.

You made a bad decision, in hindsight, to study the way you did. However, this kind of over correction is pushing your issues on to DD. It wasn't the structure of GSCEs that led to your decisions, try to look a little bit more closely at the pressure you felt, the idea of having the weight of potential you can't quite meet etc. that's the root of the problem and won't be fixed by pushing exams down the line to age 18.

I think the UK system is crazy with all the pressure on kids with 'important' exams at various stages. So by all means go for an alternative....but I think you need to be careful you are not projecting your childhood woes onto your daughter. My message to my kids was get what you need for the next stage no need to sacrifice a personal life balance is important. Both are still on track for good RG uni's without being chained to desks.
I would say thought I think its better to send children to local schools so they can make local friendships and then spend any extra cash you have on tutors rather than the private school route unless SEN is involved.

If she's thinking of going to uni and gets that stressed and anxious about competition I really would recommend doing GCSEs. It will be an excellent practice for her to manage the emotional side, and if she's as bright as you say she'll basically only need to turn up to them to do very well.

GCSE grades matter very little after A-levels - 3 degrees and several jobs later nobody has ever asked to see mine (though PPs are right that to start with, many employers will ask for a pass in Maths and English). You need to take the pressure off by giving your DD the message that they’re not the be all and end all, and that all she needs to do is work reasonably hard for a bit and aim to pass them. If she’s bright this really shouldn’t be too difficult (assuming no complicating issues like SEND).

I don't think the information you are getting from posters saying that GCSEs are needed for further study or to work in the UK is right. My daughter went to a school that didn't do GCSEs for Y10-11. She's now in Y13 doing A-levels. She's doing maths and then two essay based subjects and so universities see these as replacing the need for English and Maths GCSE. She currently has offers from 4 of the 5 universities she's applied to and is waiting to hear from the 5th - two of the offers are from Russel Group universities and none have queried the lack of GCSEs

In my opinion, it’s not the friends or the teachers that drive children to be ultra-competitive; it’s the parents. The London/South East private schools are known for it.
Put her in a local low key school and I guarantee she’ll see it as a stepping stone only to A levels, as so she should. I’m very glad mine did them, as it gave them good exam and study practice.
There is simply no need for all the angst.

GCSE grades don't matter that much for university. A lot of universities will require GCSE maths and English or equivalent. That equivalent will be satisfied by whatever the international school is offering - often it's the IB middle years programme (MYP) https://www.ibo.org/programmes/middle-years-programme/
GCSE is long slog - lots of cramming, little critical thinking, high stakes big bang assessment at the end, all made worse by the gove/cummings reforms. double testing at 16 and 18 is outmoded and should have been reformed already. An IB school offering MYP followed by IB diploma will suit some kids far better.
.

If she's really clever then she won't be needing to do excessive amount of work/ revision. If she has mental health issues already that you think GCSEs are likely to cause eating disorders/ self harm then it'll only get worse for a levels and university.

If she's extremely bright there is no reason why she can't do her GCSEs without any major upheaval. Both my siblings got 9 A*s back in the day with no extra work at all, they were both extremely bright too. I would suggest doing a bit more work than they did (and less sleeping with the teachers and drugs like my sister in the 90s) but it was doable!

This has to be the weirdest thread I have ever been on. 16 hours a day for 4 years?!?! My memory of GCSEs (as a very able child) is that I did the homework set (maybe an hour a day) from Y8 to about Easter of Y11 and then I revised for maybe 2 hours a day. (More once school had sent us out on study leave.) But mainly at that age I was playing various sports, having a slightly unsuitable boyfriend (I wanted a very unsuitable one but sadly unsuitable boys did not seem interested in my) and talking for hours on the phone to my best friend.

I have never met anyone who studied for 16 hours a day for GCSEs. (And I went to Cambridge so met a lot of people with a gazillion perfect grades.)

My own dd is predicted all 9s but is trying to balance school work with competing nationally (and probably internationally this year if things go well) at sport. Her life is quite hard (she sometimes comments that all she does is study, travel, train and compete) but she still seems to manage to spend a decent (far more than I would like!) amount of time on SnapChat with her friends.

we can see that competition with her school friends over anticipated GCSE grades (all aiming for 10 or 11 grade 9s) will be extremely destructive for her self-esteem and is likely to lead to an eating disorder, self-harm or worse.

Or, you can stress the relative unimportance of GCSEs and ensure this isn't the focus in her life and your family.

If you had to work that hard for GCSEs, I'd respectfully suggest that you were not a huge high flyer.

I don't think encouraging her to abandon everything she isn't going to come first in is healthy.

@TeensMom "I devoted Years 8 to 11 to a self-imposed 16 hours a day 365 days a year regime to ace my GCSEs, which paid off in my grades"

What did you DO with all that time???

Normally ib instead of a levels but still gcse’s I think