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Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse”

1000 replies

ICouldBeVioletSky · 25/12/2024 22:04

Whitehall ‘braced for private schools collapse’ due to fee rises

Worth reading the whole article, it’s not quite as alarmist as the headline suggests. But as you’d expect, gov sources are talking it all down while the ISC is ringing the alarm bell.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/e6465c9e-d462-48cb-a73e-74480059a1f3?shareToken=05bf599cd4a2376fe3ce83cdce607100

I’d be quite surprised if some of the schools near us don't fold tbh. There will definitely be a contraction in the sector, I just hope those that hold on can remain a viable concern.

Whitehall ‘braced for private schools collapse’ due to fee rises

The Independent Schools Council says the threat of closures after the imposition of VAT on fees is ‘very real’

https://www.thetimes.com/article/e6465c9e-d462-48cb-a73e-74480059a1f3?shareToken=05bf599cd4a2376fe3ce83cdce607100

OP posts:
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16
MerryMaker · 27/12/2024 17:46

All the threads on MN about vat on school fees has just left me with an impression of parents who are a massive bunch of whiners prone to hyperbole and a lack of perspective.

Sherrystrull · 27/12/2024 17:47

I've never heard of any state schools using any facilities from local private schools. Not any I've worked in or my children have attended.

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 27/12/2024 17:49

MerryMaker · 27/12/2024 17:44

The education authority look at where there are school places locally or what schools they can order to increase their class sizes to accompany any extra children. But you won't get the best state schools.

It's not about the "best" state schools. 🙄

It's what happens with children moving weeks before exams when they have studied different boards, where course work cannot be moved, where some subjects may not be offered, where many may be doing iGCSEs etc.

Children who have an extensive set of access arrangements in place.

The government is obligated to find these children a place and not screw up their futures. How do they do it? If their previous school no longer exists, or parents cannot find the extra thousands.

There are people on this thread who work in schools or in council admissions who may know the answer to this question.

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 27/12/2024 17:50

Sherrystrull · 27/12/2024 17:47

I've never heard of any state schools using any facilities from local private schools. Not any I've worked in or my children have attended.

DD's comprehensive use the local private school's facilities extensively.

MerryMaker · 27/12/2024 17:51

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 27/12/2024 17:49

It's not about the "best" state schools. 🙄

It's what happens with children moving weeks before exams when they have studied different boards, where course work cannot be moved, where some subjects may not be offered, where many may be doing iGCSEs etc.

Children who have an extensive set of access arrangements in place.

The government is obligated to find these children a place and not screw up their futures. How do they do it? If their previous school no longer exists, or parents cannot find the extra thousands.

There are people on this thread who work in schools or in council admissions who may know the answer to this question.

Schools really should not be closing weeks before exams. Incredibly irresponsible. Parents also should not be withdrawing children weeks before exams, and I do not understand how they would given fees are paid in advance.

MerryMaker · 27/12/2024 17:52

Sherrystrull · 27/12/2024 17:47

I've never heard of any state schools using any facilities from local private schools. Not any I've worked in or my children have attended.

In theory local state schools can use the local independents schools facilities. In practice it does not happen much.

Sherrystrull · 27/12/2024 17:59

@OhCrumbsWhereNow

Well at least there's one school benefiting.
What facilities do they use? How far are they away from the private school?

fanaticalfairy · 27/12/2024 18:06

MerryMaker · 27/12/2024 17:51

Schools really should not be closing weeks before exams. Incredibly irresponsible. Parents also should not be withdrawing children weeks before exams, and I do not understand how they would given fees are paid in advance.

If the school is shutting at Easter now can they not remove them?

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 27/12/2024 18:07

Sherrystrull · 27/12/2024 17:59

@OhCrumbsWhereNow

Well at least there's one school benefiting.
What facilities do they use? How far are they away from the private school?

About 10 minutes walk from one (their grounds are adjacent) and a bit further for the other two.

Borrow playing fields and facilities (music/science etc), lots of shared CPD for teachers, debates, music stuff, extension classes in some subjects. There's a lot of enthusiasm from both private and state schools and their SLTs.

Sometimes joint events are held in the state schools and sometimes in the private ones. It's a really good system.

Ubertomusic · 27/12/2024 18:08

Alexandra2001 · 27/12/2024 17:22

They shouldn't be applying for a school that they have zero intention of taking up, thats just going to wreck the planning for those that do need these places... or don't you care about them?

1.5m children use school building that are deemed dangerous and or unfit for children to use.

The 1.1 to 1.3billion the ONS and IFS think this policy will raise, net, annually, will help.

But as usual the wealthy will do all they can to avoid helping the least well off, just as they always have.

Why would they care about children in state sector if their parents freely express so much hatred towards them and their privately educated children? It would've been perverse.

What goes round comes around.

MerryMaker · 27/12/2024 18:09

Ubertomusic · 27/12/2024 18:08

Why would they care about children in state sector if their parents freely express so much hatred towards them and their privately educated children? It would've been perverse.

What goes round comes around.

Except they do not express hatred. They just get fed up of your whinging.
Oh no my child might have to go to a state school, let me throw a pity party.

Sherrystrull · 27/12/2024 18:10

@OhCrumbsWhereNow

I figured it was very close by. Sounds great though. We've got no private schools locally so would be hard to use resources.

Ubertomusic · 27/12/2024 18:12

Marchitectmummy · 27/12/2024 17:34

True, the exceptional part is allowing state school children to use their facilities for free. My daughters attend 3 different schools, all 3 have announced facilities will no longer be provided to state schools for free. I don't know enough about state schools to know the affect of this withdrawal on the students education. Perhaps swimming, dance, music, astro pitches, theatre, props etc are available for free elsewhere or perhaps now this educational experience will be lost for those students who knows.

Our former PS has already started charging for the use of their facilities. It's not in London so there are not so many other options around.

fanaticalfairy · 27/12/2024 18:12

anniegun · 27/12/2024 17:43

They could absorb the fee rises and just spend slightly less per pupil. That would still give them a massive funding advantage over state schools. If they still cannot attract parents, they should not be in business

Our school is lowering fees, and the adding VAT, the net increase in fees is 0% for families.

They have had a massive hike in employment costs too (like everyone with NMW and NI contribution increases) on top of losing charitable status and having to VAT administer everything.

The cost and impact of all the changes not just VAT in such a short period of time will bankrupt some schools - which will lead to job losses, where some may lose their only accomodation too. Some will be jobless and homeless in the same month because of this shambles.

A d it won't even affect the uber wealthy anyway, they'll just pay the £65k to send their buy to Eton

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 27/12/2024 18:14

Alexandra2001 · 27/12/2024 17:22

They shouldn't be applying for a school that they have zero intention of taking up, thats just going to wreck the planning for those that do need these places... or don't you care about them?

1.5m children use school building that are deemed dangerous and or unfit for children to use.

The 1.1 to 1.3billion the ONS and IFS think this policy will raise, net, annually, will help.

But as usual the wealthy will do all they can to avoid helping the least well off, just as they always have.

But thousands apply for a back up state place for Y7, and even more for Y12.

You'd be a fool not to.

It's not a case of "the wealthy will do all they can to avoid helping the least well off". It's a case of parents doing their best to find the right school for their child.

I know loads of children at DD's school who had private school places as back up just in case they didn't get her comp, and quite a few who had both offers on the table and ultimately went for private schools.

I don't know anyone applying for state now 'for the fun of it' but quite a few who have applied as they didn't know what the new fees were going to look like, or because they are concerned about the viability of their child's school. Better to get in early rather than be last and find nothing available.

fanaticalfairy · 27/12/2024 18:24

Alexandra2001 · 27/12/2024 17:22

They shouldn't be applying for a school that they have zero intention of taking up, thats just going to wreck the planning for those that do need these places... or don't you care about them?

1.5m children use school building that are deemed dangerous and or unfit for children to use.

The 1.1 to 1.3billion the ONS and IFS think this policy will raise, net, annually, will help.

But as usual the wealthy will do all they can to avoid helping the least well off, just as they always have.

Not really, te government already spend over £110bn annually. It's a 1% increase in funding, assuming it all went to schools, but now has to fund extra places for those moving out of the inde and into state...

Ubertomusic · 27/12/2024 18:28

MerryMaker · 27/12/2024 17:52

In theory local state schools can use the local independents schools facilities. In practice it does not happen much.

In practice it happens a lot.
Or I should say used to happen a lot.

Discofish · 27/12/2024 18:29

I don’t feel remotely sorry for these schools. I taught in a private school- they are able to make money out of their resources in a way that state schools are not, the one I taught in hired out its Chapel and "great hall" for weddings in the long summer holidays (8 weeks long), they also hired out the grounds and halls for summer camps, most of these schools have beautiful buildings and facilities that they can make money from (it also had its own swimming pool, acres of woodland etc).

I noticed some comments in regards to job losses and others saying they would never work in the state sector - can't help but think that is sheer snobbery, there are lots of different state schools. My experience in the private school was that my head of department was a bully- everyone knew what he was like and did nothing, there was no union presence so I no where to go. The inner city state school I went on to work at- yes very stressful in terms of the challenges but no member of staff would have got away with bullying like he did- all the staff were so supportive of one another. The state school I'm now is in a more leafy area and quite frankly a breeze compared to an inner city school, also a breeze compared to being bullied by my HoD in a private school.

Totally agree with others regarding the huge discrepancy in terms of certain industries being dominated by the privately educated, something needs to be done to create some kind of equity. Whether this will do that who knows but I don't feel sorry them one bit.

Ubertomusic · 27/12/2024 18:31

MerryMaker · 27/12/2024 18:09

Except they do not express hatred. They just get fed up of your whinging.
Oh no my child might have to go to a state school, let me throw a pity party.

Yes I can see you have a very different view on what's socially acceptable. I just wonder why you whine when "a massive bunch of whiners" push your kids out of their way 🤷‍♀️

MBL · 27/12/2024 18:32

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 27/12/2024 17:42

Was intrigued as to how councils operate with suddenly finding a school place for a child moving now who is sitting exams in May/June this year.

Or indeed an entire year group in sudden need.

Local to me a private school (secondary with some borders) closed about 4 years ago. For a school to close like this numbers had been dwindling for a while. It tried to go coed maybe 2 years before it shut.
The LA found or made places for the kids that wanted them in the 4 nearby state secondaries.

I read that 20000 children from Ukraine had been found places in the UK since the war broke out. I think there is capacity in the system but it may not be at your very nearest school or the one you want. To some extent like school admissions generally.

MerryMaker · 27/12/2024 18:36

@Ubertomusic Grin
Tell me how I have behaved socially unacceptable
And please do not make things up. I have not whinged once

Superworm24 · 27/12/2024 18:38

MerryMaker · 27/12/2024 18:09

Except they do not express hatred. They just get fed up of your whinging.
Oh no my child might have to go to a state school, let me throw a pity party.

Considering you claim you don't care about how others educate their children you've done an awful lot of whinging on this thread.

Ubertomusic · 27/12/2024 18:40

MBL · 27/12/2024 18:32

Local to me a private school (secondary with some borders) closed about 4 years ago. For a school to close like this numbers had been dwindling for a while. It tried to go coed maybe 2 years before it shut.
The LA found or made places for the kids that wanted them in the 4 nearby state secondaries.

I read that 20000 children from Ukraine had been found places in the UK since the war broke out. I think there is capacity in the system but it may not be at your very nearest school or the one you want. To some extent like school admissions generally.

Lots of Ukrainian children are in private schools actually, if you didn't know that.

Juliagreeneyes · 27/12/2024 18:40

anniegun · 27/12/2024 17:43

They could absorb the fee rises and just spend slightly less per pupil. That would still give them a massive funding advantage over state schools. If they still cannot attract parents, they should not be in business

The vast majority of spending in any educational institution is on staff salaries. The majority of private schools are not Eton with huge estates and vast reserves - their budgets are just like any school’s budgets, with staff salaries the highest spend. Absorbing the cost of the VAT would probably mean getting rid of staff - other people’s jobs. Is that OK? Absorb the cost of the VAT by making a few staff redundant? That doesn’t sound to me like a net gain for the U.K. economy/tax take.

If I phrased what you’re arguing as “private schools to make 20% of their staff redundant in order to pay their equivalent of their salaries to the government in tax”, does that sound quite so appealing? It kind of spoils the “sticking it to the poshos” narrative, doesn’t it, because it makes it clear that the costs are in ordinary people’s jobs (private school teachers don’t earn big money, they are ordinary people); and especially in the NI and tax they pay, and their contribution to the economy, and so on.

Most private schools won’t actually want to make their staff redundant - especially with no warning in the middle of the year. So they won’t be able to just absorb all the VAT rise.

This whole policy is an economically illiterate one which only appeals to people who don’t or can’t really think through the consequences on a broader scale - they just like it because they think it’s an opportunity to punish rich people’s kids — plenty of examples on this thread — and recycle the misleading narratives about “tax breaks” that are misinformation about the issue. If Labour announced that they were slapping a tax on any other area of the economy that wouldn’t be permitted under EU tax law, and would force job losses, closures of businesses and negatively counterproductive effects on other areas of the economy, people would be up in arms asking why they were doing it. On this issue, though, they’ve got loads of people cheering on a back of the envelope policy they don’t understand just for spite.

And I say this as someone who’s previously voted Labour all my life and who also works in public education. I won’t be voting Labour again because this is a poorly constructed, counterproductive, anti-education policy that is designed to delight the stupid but which will be a massive own goal in the end.

It’s also a policy that they can only have because of Brexit (another massively ignorant policy that delighted the stupid but has cost us massive economic harm). It’s utter mendacity to be enacting any policy that would need to be reversed instantly if we were to rejoin the EU and then lie to the public that it’s about taking away “tax breaks”.

MerryMaker · 27/12/2024 18:42

If you think you will not be able to afford the fees, then start looking now for a state place rather than leaving it till the last minute. And consider cheaper private schools or taking out a loan against any equity in your house.

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