Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse”

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Whitehall ‘braced for private schools collapse’ due to fee rises

Worth reading the whole article, it’s not quite as alarmist as the headline suggests. But as you’d expect, gov sources are talking it all down while the ISC is ringing the alarm bell.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/e6465c9e-d462-48cb-a73e-74480059a1f3?shareToken=05bf599cd4a2376fe3ce83cdce607100

I’d be quite surprised if some of the schools near us don't fold tbh. There will definitely be a contraction in the sector, I just hope those that hold on can remain a viable concern.

Yes they are! When I bought a car and pay for petrol rather than using buses, I pay vat.

State have a duty to supply a place for every child in a state school? Yes. Can they? No. There certainly appear to be enough state schools to take all those leaving private education. However, those spaces are often in the wrong place and - especially in rural areas - allow no parental choice. Surrey is an extreme example, possibly because a lot of high-flying people have moved there out of London. There are simply not enough state spaces for anyone leaving the private school system at the moment and punting kids out to neighbouring counties is not - except on the borders - easy. Yes, with falling rolls the system may remedy itself in time in early/mid years, but it'll take years in the senior schools and for those with SEN children it's dire with state schools unable to provide and CAMHS barely dealing with the applications they currently have. If you add to that county/unitary councils finances where many are on their uppers/facing bankruptcy, it's grim. I, too, dream of a wonderful world where there are good state schools with keen students and imaginative teachers throughout the land, with SEN and troubled children well provided for. This may be the first step towards it, but it's going to be very rocky for very many years.

I'd be interested to know how many of these SEND pupils being used as argument bait are SEND under any old definitions, and how many of them are SEND for the purposes of getting an extra half hour in exams, which is something private schools are pretty expert at. 30% seems a lot.

People are not charged VAT on private health care, when they choose not to use the NHS. Buses are an irrelevant example as they are not universally available to everyone at no cost.

@crosstalk You are not entitled to a choice of schools in the state sector, only a school place.

There are simply no school places in many areas though, or are we now suggesting that the state can meet its responsibilities by offering a school place 2 hours from home?

Lets see if there is any need first. I suspect nearly all private pupils will stay in private schools.

Nice of the rich kids to help the poor people, bless them

Even the rather optimistic government figures estimate that tens of thousands will leave the private sector, suggesting there will be a need.

I definitely don't get free bus travel!

Bus travel is currently subsidised with a maximum fare.

I have to find 5k next year to pay vat. That is 5k I’m not spending on goods or services and is going straight to government in a big pot of other tax. I’ll be astonished if any of it finds its way into the state sector.

The state sector is for the most part fucked and I don’t want my dc in the one school they are in catchment for. I can’t fix schooling in England myself, all I can do is look after my own kids and anyone else in my situation would do the same. I understand why people feel the way they do but no one will get a better education out of this policy.

As pp have said better than I, the very rich and privileged who already run the world will continue to do so as vat on fees is nothing to them, levelling down highish earners by taxing them to fuck does not a meritocracy make.

@SomethingFun Send your kids to the local state school you do not think is good enough. Or pay the vat and send your kids to private school. But please do not try and make it into a pity party.

Can we stop with this nonsense? Also MPs will not know about school places in any great depth, as education is controlled by local authorities.

When there are more pupils than school places, there is the Fair Access Protocol that can be invoked by the LA to force schools to admit over PAN if necessary, They will also negotiate with schools to take bulge years if necessary. You might not get a school of your choice - as do many parents who can’t buy their way out of state education - but there will be a place made available.

I’m sure the people scrambling to find 5K can adjust their budget accordingly, as state schools have had to for years without anybody giving a flying fuck

And frankly some private schools should collapse. Some offer a really poor education. There is one near me that failed to meet the very basic standards required by Schools Inspectorate.

Two prep schools near me seem to have gone through two head teachers each in about the last year. I think one was safeguarding and and one was financially itregularity.

Goodness.

“To make out you are doing state educated children a service by keeping your SEN children out is stinking bulllshit and makes me sick. You compound the problems and I despise you.”

And

“legally the state has to offer you a school place if you need one.”

(For clarity - quoted from two different posters.)

We entered the private school system because my disabled son wasn’t offered a mainstream state education. LAs too frequently couldn’t give two hoots what’s legal and what isn’t. We had a huge fight to get him an education of any sort at all. I had a choice of leaving my job and home educating my child or sending him private for the THREE YEARS it took to convince our LA that he needed to be in a specialist independent school. I hope that doesn’t make me despicable. Perhaps it does.

If your child has an ECHP you are exempt from vat. So this thread is not relevant to your situation.

“If your child has an ECHP you are exempt from vat. So this thread is not relevant to your situation.”

May I be so bold as to suggest that there are a lot of posters on this thread whose circumstances are not relevant.

@MerryMaker the school has to be named as the only suitable placement on the EHCP in order for VAT not to be added. The vast majority of kids with an EHCP will not have a named school.

I work in schools admissions. I’ve seen no evidence of any influx from private schools coming.

@Catshit do you work in a school or for the local council?

The vat is added regardless. The LA can claim the VAT back via a different mechanism if they are paying the fee.

@Alexandra2001 - eat out to help out was implemented to get hospitality workers back into work as the industry knew many were leaving to go to other countries and were young and needed to work. It wasn’t all just about money. In hindsight, a lot of people now think the Swedish approach was better anyway so I am not sure the Covid stuff is as relevant as Brexit. They did get a vaccine rollout done quickly and the money splashed on furlough was quite liberal left anyway for an otherwise quite right leaning party. So I don’t agree with those. I certainly never agreed with the long school closures- it was clear what would end up happening to this generation of kids. My brother was in Switzerland at the time and his children missed less than 6 weeks of school in total and they have far fewer post Covid problems in education.

That’s not necessarily the case. An ECHP only exempts a child from VAT if an EHCP names a specific school.

“The Treasury has said that VAT will not be applied to the fees of pupils with an educational, health and care plan (EHCP) if it states that they need a local authority-funded place in a private school for specialist support and that this place cannot be provided by mainstream state-funded education.
However, where parents and guardians choose to send their child with special educational needs or disabilities to a private school, VAT will be applied to their fees.
The tax also applies where pupils have an
EHCP but the local authority has decided that a private school place is not necessary to meet their needs.
Treasury documents, published”

www.tes.com/magazine/analysis/general/vat-on-private-school-fees-everything-you-need-know