Would you consider 11+ if behind on maths?

[Reluctantadult]

Just that really! DD is meeting expectations / borderline exceeding for both reading and writing. But for maths she is currently working towards, expected to be meeting expectations by end of year. She's dyslexic and has a bit of additional support 1:1, mainly doing a maths programme, also touch typing. My understanding is that one of the grammar schools requires maths above a certain score (we would not consider this one), the others amalgamate scores. Things like non-verbal reasoning she may well kick out of the park. Having a spikey profile like this is making it very hard to judge.

It really depends on your area and also the schools since it sounds like the ones in your area do things differently from one another. In my area, I don't think a child who wasn't comfortably above expectations/greater depth would have much of a chance and I wouldn't put the child through it.

Thanks for replying! I don't think we should either but I don't want to do DD a disservice so I am just checking my thinking on a wider audience.

Some schools or areas for the 11+ exams don't assess maths at all, focusing instead on VR or NVR, which may be somewhat less relevant to the level of reading writing in primary school report. It's better to check the specific 11+ requirements first.

I don't think it sounds like borderline exceeding would be enough to make up for expected maths?

Grammar schools are meant to take the top percentage of performance. It doesn't sound like your daughter meets that, so would you really think it is right for her? I would look at whatever school is going to meet her needs in the best way. Grammar tends to suit motivated high performers. It certainly would be a good fit for my kids.

Why are you even considering this?

She will be in a class of kids who won't have 'a spiky profile' and the school won't be used to dealing with anyone with 'a spiky profile'.

This is about you being in denial of her not being right for grammar school.

You should be measuring her expectations rather than building them up to something unachievable or likely not to be in her best interests. Instead you still haven't grasped that doing this is doesn't 'match her spiky profile'.

Seriously. You need to deal with your own disappointment and expectations rather than imposing this on your daughter.

She can achieve and do well in life. Setting her up for confidence knockdown after confidence knockdown isnt going to help her do that though.

If she was borderline meeting expectations/ exceeding for everything it might be worth a crack. But working towards on anything? No it's just not going to happen. It's not remotely realistic.

In our area the kids have to hit an overall score to be eligible for grammar and also get above a certain score in each of the three elements (English. Maths and Reasoning).

Personally, in your position I would not consider the 11+. I have three DDs, two at grammar and one at a comprehensive. I only supported the eldest two in their decision to do the 11+ because I was fairly certain that they'd pass as they were exceeding across the board.

DD3 is not academic and I fully supported her decision to not do the test.

Some schools don’t test for maths. You could always put her through the practice tests and see how she does. I would do this if she was particularly gifted in other areas, but it sounds like she’s not? It’s grim being in bottom sets for absolutely everything in a grammar school.

@RedToothBrush 1) because the only non grammar secondary here has a poor reputation. It was rated requires improvement by Ofsted with poor reading progress and dyslexia support highlighted, which DD needs. 37 teachers have just left. 2) Her school report has put her high for reading and writing. 3) her dyslexia assessment put her in the top 99% for aspects of non verbal reasoning. 4) she loves school and has a great work ethic. She dislikes messing about. Which takes me back to 1.

As I said further up, we were not considering grammar before I just want to check my reasoning that this is still the right call.

Really what I would like for her is a better comprehensive!

Also @RedToothBrush I'm massively proud of my daughter, not disappointed!

I really wouldn't. It's not fair on her.

It depends where you live. Are you in a Grammar county like Kent or Buckinghamshire, where the top 25% or so go to grammars, or are you more like London, where it's the top 2 or 3%? If the latter, then it's probably a stretch too far, but possibly not in the former.

Just to add to this, some grammar areas don't use NVR any more.
We live in a grammar area but the non-grammar comprehensives are mainly truly comprehensive and there are a few to choose from so my DD's maths issues meant we just didn't bother.

I don’t know what the 11+ is like these days but that sounds like me when I was that age minus the dyslexia, and I passed. Spiky learning profile too.

Dyslexia is quite relevant here, though.

The tutoring process learning how to take exams and 12 months of atom learning certainly won’t hurt her. But once in can she manage the pace?
Do the grammars offer exam support (I read some only allow a few provisions like extra time or smaller exam room).
Once accepted will they support the dyslexia needs?
I think you need to research more.

@Reluctantadult I suppose it might make a difference if the grammar school is top 25% intake as pp said. But there's a lot of pressure in top 5% schools and it really doesn't suit some children. If she loves learning I'd hate her to become disillusioned or compare herself unfavourably to others' capabilities.

Tricky.

Absolutely no chance of finding a better non-grammar further afield?

Round here I wouldn’t bother with 11+ because our local non-grammar is fabulous.

But in your shoes, I’d be tempted to try if you have enough time - if dd is Y4 then you have ages to get ready.

I would try and prep her; if she gets stressed or hates the prep then I would stop.

What is the SEN provision like at the grammar? Do you know any SEN pupils at the school you could ask the parents what it’s like for them?

Came to say this. I grew up in Bucks and 1 in 4 kids went to the grammar school so it wasn't super selective and there was a range of abilities within the 25% (obviously). I would say in that environment there would be space for someone who was above average overall but had a few specific difficulties. Have you spoken to her teacher? Given you are trying to decide whether to put her forward I assume you are not in a solely Grammar area and rherefore the school might be more celective?

@BlackberrySky It would be better if you did not mislead people about Bucks. It’s not remotely the top 25% in every school. It’s not even the top 25% in every area of the LA. Some areas are under this number and some over. There’s a big difference between schools and where pupils live and, basically, parental background and money for tutoring. It’s true the tests are not looking for top 3% but most dc will be exceeding but Bucks is a high achieving LA and plenty of the non grammars have high achieving dc too.

If it's Trafford, she wouldn't have a chance to get a space. It's really really competitive ATM, with kids who previously would have got in no longer doing so.

The grammar schools have generally tightened their criteria in the last couple of years as a result of the pressure.

I would be looking up the entry requirements for the last year - it'll give you a fairly clear of where things stand.

But if she's below expectations for maths and only borderline for English/Reading I really think it's nuts to attempt it.

Below expectations isn't just below the 50% age mark.

In 2023/24, 73% of pupils met the expected standard at maths at Key Stage 2.

Three quarters of kids are ahead of her at maths. This is a non starter of a thought.

You are going to have to go with the Comprehensive or find another alternative because grammar school isn't the solution to avoiding this comp.

It doesn’t particularly affect intelligence, it’s a neurodivergence, so as long as reasonable adjustments are made ie. extra time, then in theory that create a more level playing field. Most schools, even posh ones are well versed in dyslexia. Just not autism, unfortunately.

The grammars in question are on the selective end, not like Bucks. I know bright seeming kids who didn't get in. Due to the state academy here, lots of parents are now heavily tutoring to try to get their kids in to grammar. We didn't want to go down that route, my feeling is they need to be able to hold their own when they're in the school and not be bottom of the class. So I'm still thinking no to 11+. I am relieved some pp's understand why I'm just checking my thinking. And I'm still not sure what to do instead. But we have time to do another visit.

@RedToothBrush she is borderline exceeds expectations / greater depth for reading and writing. Teacher said she may be exceeding by end of year. But I am definitely getting your message.

My son was greater depth in all three areas throughout ks2 (poss ks1 too but I can't remember). He still found the 11+ content hard despite quite a bit of practice books/atom learning in year 5 and that was for selective not super selective (grammar county). He was greater depth prior to starting any of the prep for 11+ and with no extra homework or pushing at home or anything. That's not to boast just to give an idea of how hard it is.
Having said that if you spin the prep carefully to her as preparation for homework/harder stuff in secondary generally it maybe can't hurt to start doing some prep if it doesn't cause her distress because it's too hard. If you use a tutor I would choose carefully though to find someone who won't focus overly on the test itself while also teaching the skills for it if that makes sense!