Would you consider 11+ if behind on maths?

[Reluctantadult]

Just that really! DD is meeting expectations / borderline exceeding for both reading and writing. But for maths she is currently working towards, expected to be meeting expectations by end of year. She's dyslexic and has a bit of additional support 1:1, mainly doing a maths programme, also touch typing. My understanding is that one of the grammar schools requires maths above a certain score (we would not consider this one), the others amalgamate scores. Things like non-verbal reasoning she may well kick out of the park. Having a spikey profile like this is making it very hard to judge.

Cross posted with your update. If super selective that doesn't sound like a sensible plan to me based on our experience of 'only' selective but I don't have specific experience of those.
(As someone else said, although in theory it might be 25% of those who take the test, it was.more like 10% or less of year 6 who passed this year at our school - I'm not certain how many are in yr 6 in total).

Of course if the secondary is rock bottom, the only way is up. There could be improvement over the next year or two.

I'd advise against picking a grammar with SEN or if you are worried DC will be in the lower sets. We didn't realise until CATs test that DD had a very high IQ (very middle table for everything but one teacher did suggest she had an unusual aptitude for very complex maths, however this was a year after she was put into remedial maths so I was a bit confused!). We didn't look at the grammars because of her dyslexia and I know she doesn't work well in high pressure environments. We have very low achieving grammars in our town - around the 320th-350th mark nationally and the state schools are much worse, as they don't have the top 25%. Dd asked to take 11+ after we found out her score was 137 from the CATs and she just passed, so could have gone. However all of the girls who had tutored since Y1 were going and all had bullied her for spelling and she was adamant she didn't want to go to the same school. 2 girls from her class got in on appeal and both are really struggling, even without SEN. Personally I am very glad we went private (no distracting boys and great dyslexia support, lots of ND kids and much kinder atmosphere) and thankful we could afford to with sacrifices. Grammar schools are not very good for children who need a nurturing approach but kids who thrive on competition will do well. You know your DC best.

I would never put my child through the 11+ process if s/he wasn't exceeding expectations in all areas being tested. It's a lot of unfair pressure to put on a child, not to mention the pressure of the school itself.

I'm not saying it to be a dick, which I think you think I'm being. I'm saying it because you just aren't remotely being realistic in thinking it's a 'might' option.

Even if she was well into exceeds at this stage, it's unlikely to be able to pull her up enough on the maths.

11+ is that hard.

I know that it's not uncommon for those putting their kids in for 11+ around here to start tutoring from year 2 or 3. And they tend to be reasonably well achieving borderline kids. So you are potentially well behind the curve on that too.

If it's really a case that your worst nightmare is that comprehensive, your options are probably going to be an out of catchment application (which if the school is that bad, everyone else will be attempting too so you need to seriously consider how realistic your application is), thinking about private options or moving house.

And honestly at a term into yr4 you need to get your skates on for the latter two if you are serious about them.

Consider what other schools available and look at their entry criteria for the last year - this is usually available on council websites. They are all difficult according to the area and school - some round here are siblings, then catchment others are siblings, then feeder primaries (and fill up before it gets to catchment). You need to get informed on this. There are other ways of doing it too.

But you want to get moving on that too. I know a lot of the local high school have already done open evenings for this year around here so you've possibly missed the opportunity to look around places under the next academic year now. That means you are into yr5 and close to the application date - if you are considering the moving option you aren't going to get to view a school and move before putting your application in. So you are actually much more up against it than perhaps you realise.

The alternative is moving afterwards and looking at in year transfers and that's much harder to do, and you won't necessarily get a choice of school at all anyway, especially if it's a superbly over subscribed area, forget it.

Like I say Trafford and I believe Manchester City councils are particularly up against it for a place ANYWHERE - just about all the schools regardless of reputation or grammar status are full, so I sincerely hope you aren't up this way.

If you really want your daughter to avoid that Comprehensive, you are going to have to get on with it.

Otherwise you are just going to have to bite the bullet on it.

Cheers @RedToothBrush she's in year 5!
I've deffo got the message about grammar though. Worth asking just to put to bed.

We're in Gloucestershire.

Grammars don’t suit everyone even if they get in. My son went to a superselective grammar and excelled.

He’s Just graduated and doing well, but is not massively positive about the grammar school experience . A couple of boys he knows bumped along the bottom the whole time they were there.

These are bright people, who were made to feel dim because they were surrounded by so many super bright boys.
I would not have put my younger daughter anywhere near the 11 plus. There pressure and the cohort have put her off learning for life.

Horses for courses as they say

One of my friends put one son through grammar and the other through comprehensive even though the second was bright enough for grammar.

The one who went to grammar did well but he's lacking in confidence whilst the other did just as well but is much more confident and has much better social skills.

They've both ended up on similar courses at university and honestly if I was to pick one to employ given they are academically fairly well matched and had similar other skills, it wouldn't be the grammar school one.

Whilst the grammars are good, I've also heard plenty that's off-putting too. I know people who have moved to get their child out of the grammar system because it wasn't all it was cracked up to be and wasn't right for their child.

If the local school has a reputation and lots of teachers have left, it doesn't mean it's going to stay bad. If there's been a change of leadership recently as a result of poor ratings, then you would expect a lot of teachers to leave. This could be a GOOD sign not necessarily a bad one.

Do enlighten us as to the % in Bucks then. Another PP also reckons about 25% but more than happy for you to give us a more accurate figure. I was merely making the point that it depends on the number of grammar school places avaliable in the area. I don't profess to be an expert, as is the case for most people on here. I feel sure the OP understood my meaning.

My understanding is, if not “exceeding expectations” in both maths and English, then grammar prep will be quite a stretch and may not be possible.

I also think if you have to tutor like mad to get a DC to one of these schools, they’ll find the workload tricky when they’re there.

I would only consider any grammar for a child consistently exceeding expectations in Reading/Writing/Maths. Sure there will be kids that will scrape in being 'Expected' on school reports and with lots of tutoring, but I wouldn't want my child to struggle.

I think you have to know your child and what is the right environment for them. For grammar, I think you need to be academic and generally high achieving, with good resilience and confidence to cope with the style of teaching.

My son has recently passed for grammar and tbh is chomping at the bit ready for harder maths in secondary school. He describes maths as his worst subject at school as it's so boring. Aside from if your child can pass/not, you do have to reflect there will be many children in grammar like that and the pace will be fast. From how you describe she may be much better higher up a non selective school than struggling in a grammar.

@Reluctantadult I'm in Glos too. To be brutally honest, I wouldn't consider the Glos grammars unless my kid was exceeding in both (or borderline exceeding in one maybe). They are INSANELY competitive and the competition has only got worse over the past few years. My DD was the above (exceeding in English, borderline exceeding maths) and didn't get a ranking place at any schools.
You might be in with a better chance at Denmark Road, but ONLY if you live in the postcode priority area. But even then, will your DD be happy with the pace there?
Depending on where you are in the county you may have to look wider at other options. As an example lots of ppl on the appropriate edge of Gloucester send their kids to the comprehensives in Churchdown.

@BlackberrySky You cannot say that every school will get 25% 11 plus pass rates. Some get 5% on a good day. Some get 45% and I’ve seen higher. My point was it’s not a county wide pass rate per school or even in each area. It’s much higher in the south of the county and below 20% in mid and north Bucks. There are also fluctuations due to tutoring and out of county dc taking the exam. If dc was in an area with lower attaining dc, 25% would be a dream. Therefore you cannot say Bucks has a 25% universal pass rate. Obviously the grammars are not super selective in Bucks and the chances are better but in many schools there are exceeding dc who don’t get the required mark. The exam is taken in Sept which doesn’t help lots of dc either.

Grammar schools in my part of Kent need passes in English and Maths. Some of the lower ranking grammars may take kids with an overall pass on appeal if they have space.

I don't know what grammars are like now, but my daughter was in a class with a girl who was incredibly good at languages but hopeless at maths and science subjects. Do they rely at all on recommendations from their previous schools? (This was Dorset)

Yes. Heads ranking. The grammars rarely get a spiky profile though. Not these days. Too much competition for places and MFLs not tested.

I think @yoshiblue has it here "I think you have to know your child and what is the right environment for them. For grammar, I think you need to be academic and generally high achieving, with good resilience and confidence to cope with the style of teaching"

If your kid has SEN it is likely they have been bullied or have low self confidence and the nature of grammar is to push out the weak to get top scores. As I mentioned the 2 girls who got in on appeal (no SEN) are hugely struggling in the bottom sets. These are not stupid girls but quiet and shy without the huge confidence of the louder ones in their primary class. The grammars here have around 0-1 SEN pupil every GCSE year for the last 3 years and there is a reason for that. DD's private school is in the top 100 and she is the happiest she has ever been, yet far more modest than many of their primary cohort in grammar.

Hi OP,
I have a yr 5 child we are gently tutoring for 11+ despite all the PP’s protests of gloom. They are exceeding in Maths, but working towards in English (just, atrocious spelling and handwriting is currently keeping them down, not a lack of vocabulary or imagination or reading ability). SPIKEY!

Our tutor is a SEN tutor who covers the 11+, not a 11+ tutor who has had SEN training IYSWIM?

We’ve taken a view that we’re not set on sitting the exam, just prepping for it. The NVR stuff is fun. We’ll see how it’s going next September. If it looks like a pass we’ll go, if not we’ll quietly drop it.

People get so emotional about the grammar system. Neither myself nor my husband are English, so we don’t have the same attachment issues.

The emotion comes from there being no other good choices in many Grammar area unless you go privately.

I would have chosen to have my child at home and not be a weekly boarder, for example, if there had been a local school for kids with high IQs who were SEN supported.

School reports aren't everything. I was brought up in Bucks and school suggested I'd have no chance getting into grammar, never in top groups at primary. Parents sent me selective private and I was top sets for everything without tutoring, I was just summer born and quite quiet compared with some bigger personalities...

Maths can also just click, especially with a tutor who understands how the child thinks.

I'd consider whether trying and failing would feel like a disaster to your DD or if she'd be wondering "what if"...

In my experience as a teacher, the children who get into grammars (in a partially-selective area, so not a full selective county) are the best coached and trained, NOT those exceeding in the standard primary school assessments of English, Maths etc.

Typical successful applicants of this type would be ‘higher expected’ children from family backgrounds that value a specific type of education and are very focused on rote learning and repetitive practice. They are typically coached from Y4 and do additional 11+ focused work daily.

Again, in my experience, such children succeed in the specific 11+ context (where speed and accuracy in closed tasks are required) but may fare much less well in normal school markers of higher ability eg Reading comprehension of complex books; extended creative writing with flair; Maths open ended problem solving. I have therefore seen obviously brilliant but un coached children fail to get into grammars while much more mediocre but highly trained children pass.

If a grammar is your only way out of a particular school, then my only advice would be to coach heavily and practise daily. I would say, however, that some grammars have a very peculiar culture amongst students that sees ‘ability in Maths’ as ‘the only form of ability worth valuing’, so a child who is less able at Maths but great at English may be perceived by their peers as ‘of lower status’ than a Maths whizz whose English work is poor.

How upset will she be if she fails?
if she’d be gutted I wouldn’t put her in, if she is more robust and devil may care then give it a whirl .

Bollocks to that. Of course grammar schools deal with kids with spiky profiles all the time. Some of the greatest minds have spiky profiles due to dyslexia etc. The issue will be if the student hasn't already had their SEN recognised and reasonable adjustments made to the 11+ process.

Having worked in a super selective that takes kids in the top 5% rather than top 25% like grammar schools generally do you would be surprised just how many do have the spikiest profiles.

OP ensure the correct adjustments are in place for their dyslexia and SEN and they will have a good a shot as anyone

I am in Gloucestershire and my daughter was struggling a bit with maths in year 5 but exceeding in other areas. We got her a tutor for an hour a week and focused specifically on Maths, to help her catch up. She sat the 11+ and got in to grammar (by the skin of her teeth, she was nearly the lowest ranked child to get in on allocation day).
She is now in year 8 and is happy and doing well at grammar, and managing to keep up with the maths.
However - before covid she was doing really well at Maths, she only got behind because we as parents did a pretty crap job at homeschooling her, so the struggling at Maths was a bit of a blip. So OP I think you really need to work out if your child is likely to catch up and then be OK with Maths, or if they are likely to struggle all the way through.