Would you consider 11+ if behind on maths?

[Reluctantadult]

Just that really! DD is meeting expectations / borderline exceeding for both reading and writing. But for maths she is currently working towards, expected to be meeting expectations by end of year. She's dyslexic and has a bit of additional support 1:1, mainly doing a maths programme, also touch typing. My understanding is that one of the grammar schools requires maths above a certain score (we would not consider this one), the others amalgamate scores. Things like non-verbal reasoning she may well kick out of the park. Having a spikey profile like this is making it very hard to judge.

I would also say that grammar schools, because they have many fewer SEN pupils than average, can have really excellent SEN support for some types of SEN - autism (of the types perhaps previously characterised as ‘high functioning’ or ‘Asperger’s); sensory or physical disabilities such as hearing or sight loss; mild dyslexia. They will typically be much less familiar with or tolerant of SEN that affects in-class behaviour or impacts other students.

@cantkeepawayforever good point on learning needs vs. behavioural needs...it may well have been that way in my daughter's highly selective school, tbf.

My concern is mainly for the child in question, in each individual case - does the pressure suit them and their learning style, are they academic enough, will they be distressed if it becomes too much, and so on. I did absolutely no tutoring for mine because my reasoning was that I wanted them to be organically capable of happily continuing in school, not just passing the tests. That's not every parent's view, of course, and that's okay.

She may pass the 11+ as it doesn’t assess maths the way the national curriculum does.
However, I would worry about her keeping up at grammar school, I will never forget a girl transferring in to out school with about three months to go before GCSEs as the grammar decided she wouldn’t pass the higher papers and didn’t put anyone in for foundation on what appeared to be nothing more than principle. This was 25 years ago though.

This was many years ago as I'm late 40s. I was pretty academic at primary so took the 11 plus. We came from a poor background but I was tutored in order to pass it. I did well. I was bright but not outstanding.

It was a shock at grammar as I saw I was almost bottom of the pile compared to peers. We had A level to E level sets for core subjects. I was in E set ( bottom) for maths. At GCSE I could only get a C grade or below as we had a modified paper. I got the C. I was very happy with that!

A sibling went to the comprehensive. I would not have coped there. I spoke to a school friend recently and we feel lucky that we realise we were slightly protected from so much of the social issues that others were dealing with in comprehensives.

Now my teen is in a comprehensive I just despair at what goes on. This is a good school yet doesn't feel anything like the experience we had in grammar.

@AllTangledUpInTinselAndTiaras I think the factor you have missed out is ‘alternative school available’.

Someone with an excellent or good alternative local near-comprehensive might judge trying for the grammar as less critical, whereas someone whose only viable alternative is a failing school might - despite having a child for whom the grammar is not an obvious fit - strain every sinew for grammar entry.

No.

Now my teen is in a comprehensive I just despair at what goes on. This is a good school yet doesn't feel anything like the experience we had in grammar.

Yo be fair, this may well have been the case whatever type of school your teen attended. Schools as a whole have changed enormously in a generation - I am most familiar with primaries, where the level and extent of need and the type of behaviour and disruption now commonplace, even in the very best schools, would have been alien 10 - 15 years ago, let alone 30.

Of course. I understand that. Just commenting in general that each child's circumstances will differ.

I would be working with her at home and helping her with maths, regardless of 11 plus. She sounds clever and motivated but in need of some extra help to flourish. It will help her confidence if many in the class are doing it and may help her get into higher sets in the comprehensives. If she is good at reading that will also help her with the worded maths problems and 2/3 step questions which many kids struggle with. Having an excellent foundation in primary maths goes a very long way later on.

My DD went to our local grammar recently. She wasn't great at Maths going into her 11+ but was exceptionally good at VR and the English component.
As people have already said - it will depend on the individual exams, as there isn't a set curriculum across all 11+ exams and how competitive the area is.
Being less good at maths now doesn't mean she'll struggle either - maths can be taught well by a good teacher. My DD went from being pretty average to finishing with a grade 9 and 7 in FM. She could have easily taken it at A level.
In our experience the Grammar school had quite a lot of SEN kids. Behaviour wasn't perfect. But as we now know DD was undiagnosed ASD throughout high school she had very good practical and pastoral support.

It sounds like you're not in a Grammar School county where all children sit 11+ at school and you'd be going out of your way to have her sit it.

I'd personally say, based on the limited information, that she's not a Grammar School candidate. Even in a GS County, you'd expect maybe the top 10% of children to get in, and they'd be consistently exceeding in all areas. And the ones who are borderline but just get in with a ton of tuition are often very unhappy when they get there and end up with ruined self-esteem.

Also no matter what type of secondary school your DD ends up in, quality of teaching is likely to be variable across different subjects and different years due to the teacher shortages many, if not most schools are encountering. So keeping your child confident and helping them in whatever way possible is now paramount anyway. We basically need to help them understand how to learn and use online resources and be there for them. So if you can build that trust early on in a positive way I think it will help. Some of us had disasters homeschooling and are only just rebuilding that trust but I think it’s very important in this educational climate. A little targeted supervision goes a really long way.

Don’t rule it out yet. My DD has an extremely spiky profile and gets 141 on NVR / spatial reasonings, and 130 for quant reasoning but was just above average for her progress tests for English / Maths at end of Y4 and is dyslexic. At end of year 5 the maths was unlocked and got an SAS of 134 for it (from 111) without any additional maths tutoring over some Atoms but did 1:1 dyslexic tutoring, which helped immensely with the longer worded maths problems. Her English isn’t great still and we live in London super selective areas so didn’t go for it, but you may find the maths levels up over the year and if her English/VR is strong then it could he achieveable. You can always prep and apply and then decide in summer (or May half term).

I may have a sort of similar dilemma for my younger one - it's further away for him though than for your daughter and our non-grammar options sound better than yours. He is definitely bright but doesn't achieve brilliantly at school because his writing is really lagging behind his reading/maths/ understanding. I think the 11+ itself might be an option for him because it's multiple choice but the question is whether the actual school would suit him if his writing hasn't improved by then. Will have to wait and see...

Personally, I'd see that poor rating for your secondary option as a bit of a gift for your daughter. The secondary now will be required to improve in the areas it is weak and has two years to do so before your daughter possibly arrives. If there's a turnaround programme in place, it could become a much improved place to support dyslexia and your daughter may thrive. I imagine there's a management programme that will measure improvement progress termly and it will have nailed it. I might be being naively optimistic but I also have a dyslexic DD in y6 and we have chosen an improving secondary because you can almost be certain it's going to focus on improving it's reputation in the areas it was criticised. Not easy decision though. Good luck