Nursery form teacher handed us a bag of poo

[ButterscotchWhip]

Right. I'll try to keep it short, but I don't think it will be.

DD has just turned 3. A couple of weeks ago she started in the nursery class of what I've now realised is quite a formal and strict girls' independent school. It is highly regarded locally, and me and DH loved it when we looked round, but I now fear I've done myself and DD up like a kipper sending her here.

She's fully potty trained but (my fault) I don't think I got her onto actual toilet training quickly enough. September has rolled around and she's just not 100% there on toilet training. I tell the staff this and they seem ok with it at first. I offer to send in her carry potty (which she loves and uses well) - they say no. The class is large, and the way they do toilet trips is to take a group to the loos and then the teacher stands nearby. It's just not enough support for DD, and she's had a lot of accidents there (for which we receive intense FIRST AID NOTIFICATION emails as they have to change her). Anyway, she's now never telling them when she needs to go, and she is running away from the loo at home saying she doesn't like the toilet (and started crying about it yesterday too).

We get an email from her form teacher this week saying she must now be in nappies during school time. DH emails back and says we certainly don't support this idea, she's on the right path but in a brand new environment, nappies will confuse her and send her learning backwards etc. He suggests that if this issue is one of a lack of resource / low levels of staffing, then that's a worry. He's not rude, just quite straight up.

The next morning at 9am, I receive a call from school saying DH must be collected and taken home for a bath as she's soiled herself AND they will not allow her back in school unless she's in pull-ups. I am not free to get her, neither is DH, but our son's carer/nanny is and happily collects her. She finds DD just needs a good wipe, not really a bath. Upon arriving at reception to receive DD, our nanny is given a binliner. It transpires this contains DD's soiled knickers, THE ENTIRE TURD, and all the wipes they have already used on DD's guilty bum (barf).

I haven't said anything in response to any staff yet as we already have a catch-up meeting, face to face, with the form teacher tomorrow. But presuming that they have a rubbish bin in school, I think the sh*t-bag might have been a thinly veiled message of hostility, no?

I am boggling from all this. Would genuinely love to hear what other MNers would do now!

You could equally say its from letting them walk around in pooey nappies when they're old enough to remember it.

Dd's first nursery helped and supported her with toilet training and they had their own potties there in the toilet area. It's normal to just have a change of clothes in the bag for accidents.

Surely they had to change your daughter somewhere private, so the poo could have just been tipped into the toilet as they took your dad's knickers off. Definitely sounds like they're trying to make a point. I wouldn't let your child go back there. Even if she was in nappies, are they going to be sending home turds and dirty wipes in the nappies every day? There are so many better nurseries than this. Don't let grown adult's inability to look after toddlers effectively put you off finding another, or make you feel you're in the wrong for wanting your child properly toilet trained. Makes no sense either, because then she'd never learn and join their reception in nappies which the teacher would have to change!

I would go for the pull-ups. If this enables your daughter to use the toilet independently it’s an easy workaround until she’s more comfortable in pants.

The school don’t sound as though they are acting entirely lawfully, though.
Lots of settings try and get around having children in nappies by saying they ‘don’t have changing facilities’ but nowadays that is contravened by the DDA.

This is taken from the Equality Act 2010 available via this link https://www.lbhf.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-07/hf_continence_guidance.pdf

Any admission policy that sets a blanket standard of continence, or any other aspect of development, for all children is discriminatory and therefore unlawful under the Act. All such issues have to be dealt with on an individual basis, and settings/schools are expected to make reasonable adjustments to meet the needs of each child.
Asking parents of a child to come and change a child is likely to be a direct contravention of the DDA, and leaving a child in a soiled nappy for any length of time pending the return of the parent is a form of abuse. "

She’s far too young for the setting. There’s a very good reason why nurseries have staff ratios set by regulations.
This setting isn’t benefitting your dd at all and might be storing up problems for later. Find a happy nursery setting that's educational and fun and realises the needs of a just 3 year old.

That's fascinating, thanks for sharing that. I'll have a read. Does it apply to private schools too, I wonder? And agree re pull-ups, she's been in them yesterday and today.

I'd be looking for a nursery with a focus on the individual needs of a child and nurturing them and their development t. This place sounds unsuitable for 3 year olds.

No big drama - she can wear the pull ups at school and even at home and then you can have another go at toilet training in half term (if she gets 2 weeks) or at Christmas.

Our DS has just started in the pre-school room of his private nursery (he's been there since 9 months) and like you we were concerned about toilet training but decided to send him in in pants to see how he would get on and he's been brilliant. But that's really down to the staff who listened to our concerns and for the first week made sure he had help and made it a positive experience (stickers etc.) and now he manages by himself. He's nearly 3 and a half and potty training has been a struggle but then I think that's the case for lots of 3 year olds.

Op has said she is potty trained but not toilet trained and the school won't let her use a potty. She has anxiety around using a big toilet. As is seen in many children her age.

This isn't the right setting for your child or your family.

You didn't even realise what sort of setting you were putting your child in.

Many children are fully toilet trained by 3yo. Many aren't. There's no right or wrong about it, there's just "is" and "isn't". They all get there in the end.

This school expects "is" and told you as much. Your DD "isn't". Staff shouldn't have to deal with her pooing herself; your DD shouldn't have to deal with staff who can't deal with her.

Either keep her at home until she's reliably fully toilet trained (sounds awfully stressful for her), or move her to a different nursery. I don't see what else you can do really.

OP's DC is in a preschool though, they're very different to a daycare nursery that runs from babies up. A preschool will be much closer to a P1/Reception primary school class, and have different ratios as they will have a teacher rather than nursery staff. They follow the same curriculum but the vibe (education vs care) and expectations are different.

I feel so sorry for you all. Our DS wasn't even ready to potty train until 3.5 and his nursery was so supportive of this.
I'd move her OP x

Remove her and report. The EYFS framework is very clear.

That is true, my eldest DS went to a school nursery though and it was just the same, they need help settling in at that age, perfectly normal, they are still tiny.

Considering?

is this a private nursery?

The turd-in-a-bag will have been because they're not set up to deal with clinical waste, and sending her home instead of cleaning her up will be because of safeguarding. This is the difference between a 'nursery class' at a prep and a proper nursery, where such things are a totally normal part of daily life with small people and inexperienced sphincters.

In my experience, nursery and reception classes at preps are inappropriately military in their ethos, which sets the tone for expectations in the years to come. Older children will cope with it better, but if you had some idea that this was a warm and nurturing environment for your child based on the PR twaddle they fed you at open days, then let this be your wake up call to reconsider what you're signing her up for.

What to do now? I would be worried with pull ups that, rather than being used as trainer pants 'just in case', they'll be regarded as a nappy and her needs will be gratefully forgotten about, which will probably lead to regression. If she's been told off or shamed so far (not at all unlikely) you may also end up with a toilet refuser on your hands, god help you. Not to mention that all the other benefits of nursery are being tainted by her generally negative experience. I think I'd be inclined at the very least to sack it off until Christmas and try again in January tbh. But honestly, unless you're absolutely wedded to the idea of this school, I'd look elsewhere. There may be less literal shit for you to deal with going forward, but the ethos won't improve.

And yes, report, or threaten to and see if you can get your fees back.

she is 3.
most nursery settings at 3 are still helping kids negotiate toilet training and accidents. If the child is still learning, then they should be still teaching it.
This nursery sounds as if it does not understand the developmental stage of a 3 year old. If they don't get it with potty training, then what else are they expecting that is not age appropriate?

caring, child centred and kind are key words when it comes to who looks after 3 year olds. They do not sound as if they are there with this.

Jesus. You’re paying for them to treat your dd this way

pull her out. They’re dehumanising her in my eyes. I don’t agree with the pull ups either because as I agree with you they’ll only confuse her.

however. She’s going to become frightened of using the toilet and I’ve seen kids have problems to adulthood if this occurs. One girl had such bad aversion to toilet training that she would stop herself going and ended up in hospital a lot. I think you’re not doing her any favours keeping her there at all

Ignore the posters making excuses.
This place is absolutely disgusting and wrong.
Your poor DD, take her out and find a decent nursery before they upset and mistreat her even more.

Well they are bloody stupid then and I cannot believe you actually chose such a school. I also don't believe that would be legal (or actually happened).

My DS is very very clever and like many very very clever kids he had uneven development. He had a few accidents in nursery and reception, including poo accidents. If they had "expelled" him because of that I would have gone to the papers. He behaved impeccably, could read and spell and do maths, was a lovely boy who was kind to other children, and you are telling me they would have "expelled" him for pooping? I call bollocks.

Are you sure you want her there? They seem to lack compassion!

Don't go back to pull ups if she's nearly there with potty training! I would be moving her ASAP.

Horribly backwards sounding preschool to me. DD's preschool were happy to work with parents on potty training. When the kids first start to wear pants rather than nappies, the teachers there are happy to remind/ask the kids if they need the toilet as often as necessary, and that usually reminded the child to go if needed, building their confidence and helping them to learn their bodies.

I’ve put heavily soiled pants in a bag to return to parents before (I haven’t got the time or space to be rinsing out pants in a tiny sink in Reception - also there would be hygiene issues of contaminating a sink) but never the wipes as well.

You need to move your DD. Whatever they are doing around toileting is already affecting her. It is only likely to get worse.
A son's friend was affected by the way his nursery dealt with toileting and it had a knock on impact for several years.
I was older than your daughter but the way toileting was dealt with in school still affects me over 30 years later. That was just with not being allowed to go when I asked (wasn't a naughty child or anything). Still struggle to ask for the loo now.
Please also consider reporting the nursery for this poor care of your child. Ofsted or local safeguarding team.

I have worked in a very ordinary preschool for the last ten years. Your daughter's behaviour is completely typical for that age. The setting, however... I cannot imagine ever treating you and your child like this. We wouldn't dream of it. Poos get plopped in the loo (I mean, that's where the child is anyway - it's not any hassle), wipes in the bin, pants in a nappy bag and on the child's peg for parents to take home. If the pants are obviously irretrievable they get binned. Children have spares on their peg or we get some out of the spares box. It's not rocket science. We totally understand that some kids this age have cracked it, some haven't. Everyone - kids, parents - get our support. They all get there in the end!

Consider it a blessing in disguise that you've discovered what the setting is like now. Can you imagine if, further down the line, you have actual real problems that you need their help with?! Run to a normal nursery/preschool and don't look back!