VAT on school fees (you have to read this!)

[EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime]

Government’s private schools VAT raid ‘could cost taxpayer £1.8bn’

Parents who are forced out of sector are likely to work less or even quit jobs, according to think tank research.

Adam Smith Institute.

That's a lot to extrapolate from a post saying that the state school admissions system needs significant reform. I'll agree that we need to move away from all measures of socioeconomic selection though - be it academic, house price, faith or other measures.

I don't think any of the questions not related to my statement are for me, so I'll leave them where they are.

They would only do this for SEN, they just go over PAN in state schools. Loads of state secondaries are over PAN.

@EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime

As far as I know, you don't have to submit a CV to post on Mumsnet. But hey, you show me yours, I'll show you mine.

@EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime - interesting... when someone makes a comment that goes against your ongoing narrative you start with the patronising responses. I agree with the previous poster (you referred to them as 'pet') that a large exodus of children from private into state schools is very unlikely. However time will tell. Also your continued effort on this thread and others to create dissatisfaction in the government is getting a bit boring.

No, but it’s the shortage of detail I find puzzling.

Anyway, we move on.

Oh, Labour are quite capable of creating dissatisfaction by their own actions.

I will not stop reporting what I read, and inviting healthy debate, even if it runs contrary to your narrative.

@EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime - it's not healthy debate when you try to shut people down, who don't agree you with patronising comments.

@EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime
What is this healthy debate of which you speak?

Anyway, we have some could have been private school parents in our state primary school. Some of the questions in the yearly class briefings over the years have been the following:

• why does the school only teach French and not offer Spanish and German
• why does the school not offer Latin in primary school
• why does the school not prepare for the 11 plus
• lots and lots of complaints if they don’t think a particular teacher is great and requests to move classes
• Lots of standing around to speak to the teacher after school every day about their own DC, usually highly achieving already

So exactly how this type of behaviour is going to help poorer children, I do not know. Surely if anything they will get less attention?
But crack on with the ideology everyone. Let’s see how this all pans out.

Notably a lot of the parents in that demographic are actually European and probably used to much higher standards in the state sector. But given we have been asking for more funds for years and it has lead to not very much at all, I do not hold out as much hope as others.

Yes it does. If we move to state we don't need my wage so why should I work? We simply can't manage VAT.

Lots of reasons to work that aren't necessarily based on needing to to pay school fees.

Plenty work and send their kids to state.

Plenty of people work for a sense of security.

Plenty of people work for a sense of the,selves, sense of achievement etc.

And if people quit high earning jobs then it leaves space for others to take those roles if they want them and then they pay the tax, NI and put the money into the economy.

It's astounds me that parents (mostly woman) of private school kids think they are so important that if they quit the working world as we know it will cease to exist.

You wanna spend all day everyday not working go for it. No one cares!

@itsgettingweird agree, the sense of self importance some posts reveal is astonishing!

@Araminta1003 - I cannot see why you might think a state school teacher will give poorer children less attention due to meeting the specific curriculum requests of ex private school parents.

I noticed that too.

@redwinechocolateandsnacks - because I have seen things change in the last 10 years in our state primary school as the demographic has become richer and more demanding, whilst there are also more SEN and some real poverty too. Big difference between when my eldest started and then youngest and youngest going through the school. They have also had to buy much harder texts to read etc. and because of funding issues, they are taking 34 kids into some ks2 classes on top of that and there is less TA support. A huge amount of kids with all differing needs translates to less attention for everyone, especially if a certain demographic is demanding more attention for their own DC. This may just be our school, but it seems like the poorer parents are avoiding the teaching staff and their demands on them to read with their kids and attend interventions. They feel stressed out by the demands. Several have voiced this. The class briefing are a massive eye opener and there are huge differences between the children in expectations/ability etc.

However, it is also possible that having had to homeschool 4 DC I am just far more aware now of all the things and boxes that need to be ticked etc and curriculum demands, in fact I now understand it all in loads of detail. And I think the gulf is massive between those who engaged in the education of their DC during Covid because they could take time out/adjust hours/work from home vs those who could not. And the privileged demographic is more likely to have working from home jobs and be able to control their hours and working patterns so when people say they will go state and adjust hours/working patterns, I do think it is far easier to do that now than pre Covid.

But many people up thread have argued that people need private schools for the wraparound childcare, rather than it being a choice.

You say that PS gives attention to their children, but then say they'd just take it all anyway in state.

You can't have it both ways.

Yes there need to be more TAs and hopefully there will be more funding to do that.

But on the whole it is the PS parents who are demanding, not the children, and they are not in the school.

Parents might get huffy and want more difficult reading but, much like this thread, it's often just noise.

I think you have both a patronising view of a lot of state school parents, and an over inflated view of how much the opinion and demands of PS parents counts in the grand scheme of things.

Most GPs are women. Most GPs also use private or selective education (it’s the medical profession with the least working class intake and they follow the pattern with their kids). If you take a couple of hundred GPs out of the equation in an area there would be a massive impact.

I may be going out on a limb here but I'm going to say most GPs aren't just in it for the school fees.

Just trying to imagine a couple of hundred GP's leaving the profession because they no longer need to pay school fees.

We had a couple of GP mums at our state primary - both had given up work to spend time with their children whilst they were small. The bigger issue is that it’s very hard to get back into being a GP after a career break.

Women leaving GP because it's difficult to balance with family life is a real issue - there are specific schemes to try and keep people - the GP retainer scheme -

https://www.england.nhs.uk/gp/the-best-place-to-work/retaining-the-current-medical-workforce/retained-doctors/

GPs work long days and going part-time (properly part-time meaning less than 40 hours a week) is tricky as the work never ends. It's also damn stressful!

Oh I completely understand that. GPs do an incredible job and I know many are leaving practice for all sorts of reasons. I have several friends who have done so.

None of it has anything to do with school fees though.

”i think you have both a patronising view of a lot of state school parents, and an over inflated view of how much the opinion and demands of PS parents counts in the grand scheme of things.”

@pintofsnakebite - so my kids go to state schools, admittedly London state schools, including grammars so I have a patronising view of myself? How does that make any sense?
And our state primary had excellent wrap around care and clubs. Maybe that is why we get a lot of borderline state/PS parents? By that I mean those who may be able to afford it and weigh it up carefully one way or another.

GPs work long days and going part-time (properly part-time meaning less than 40 hours a week) is tricky as the work never ends. It's also damn stressful!

I wouldn’t say my GP looks particularly stressed when I see him on the golf course mid week.

This is why I don't understand many of your arguments. They cancel each other out.

Or at least cancel out a lot of the arguments of people justifying why private schools are not a luxury.