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VAT on school fees (you have to read this!)

1000 replies

EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime · 31/08/2024 18:11

Government’s private schools VAT raid ‘could cost taxpayer £1.8bn’

Parents who are forced out of sector are likely to work less or even quit jobs, according to think tank research.

Adam Smith Institute.

OP posts:
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5
Morph22010 · 06/09/2024 18:54

lolly792 · 06/09/2024 18:45

@Morph22010

Yes but the LA should not be asking about finance, it should just be a case of the child has left the school, or is leaving really imminently, like next week, and is ready to take up a maintained school place. An LA won't process an application for a child who doesn't need a place imminently.

If it's true that some people who are against the VAT- exempt status being removed really have tried to make state school applications just as some sort of protest, without intending to take them up, then they're bloody idiots.

ive got a child with sen and an ehcp you don’t need to tell me what an la should and shouldn’t be doing but they generally take no
notice and do what they like until
someone takes legal action against them which all takes time and buys them time and money. I guess people who have never had to deal with the la are now finding out what they are like

Morph22010 · 06/09/2024 18:56

EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime · 06/09/2024 18:44

Please, spare me the script from Rocky.

Rayner has been over-promoted. She’s a liability on legs. You should be very afraid she has such authority - it has not been earned, and she is hugely out of her depth.

You could have said the same about Boris

strawberrybubblegum · 06/09/2024 19:05

Morph22010 · 06/09/2024 18:39

But isn’t that because they have no obligation to find a place while the child still has a place, once the child leaves independent and is out of school completely with no place they are obligated to find a place. So the letter is saying they’ll start the process early if you can prove you can’t afford but in reality they have no obligation to do this for anyone until they have no place

Again, that's not what the letter says.

Andante57 · 06/09/2024 19:12

Morph22010 · Today 18:39
But isn’t that because they have no obligation to find a place while the child still has a place, once the child leaves independent and is out of school completely with no place they are obligated to find a place

Presumably the parents are asking for a place for the child as he/she will be leaving its independent school and the parents thought it was sensible to apply early rather than wait until the school holidays after the child had left.
Would the same letter have been sent if parents had a child at state school elsewhere in the country and were moving and therefore the child needed a new school in the area where they were locating?

lolly792 · 06/09/2024 19:17

@Morph22010
You could have said the same about Boris

Absolutely! A total liability. He clearly saw it as his entitlement to be PM, not through ability but because he went to posh school and had the right connections.

But apparently the shit show of the last 14 years doesn't count... 

pintofsnakebite · 06/09/2024 19:21

Andante57 · 06/09/2024 19:12

Morph22010 · Today 18:39
But isn’t that because they have no obligation to find a place while the child still has a place, once the child leaves independent and is out of school completely with no place they are obligated to find a place

Presumably the parents are asking for a place for the child as he/she will be leaving its independent school and the parents thought it was sensible to apply early rather than wait until the school holidays after the child had left.
Would the same letter have been sent if parents had a child at state school elsewhere in the country and were moving and therefore the child needed a new school in the area where they were locating?

In that case they would have to provide proof of exchange on a property or new tenancy agreement.

Lots of people move house with no guarantee of a school place beforehand.

It's also why there are a rush of exchanges before applications deadline.

Araminta1003 · 06/09/2024 19:23

Andrew Marr has written an excellent article in the New Statesman called “Labour’s battle for Britain
After a brutal summer, the government is already disliked. Can Keir Starmer reassert the authority of the state?”

I don’t know if the article link will work for others. Of course, he does not mention private school VAT. They all seem to be dodging the issue. It seems to be too complicated to go into, too risky to take sides on. A bit like kids and school closures during Covid.

www.newstatesman.com/cover-story/2024/09/labours-battle-for-britain

pintofsnakebite · 06/09/2024 19:25

Araminta1003 · 06/09/2024 19:23

Andrew Marr has written an excellent article in the New Statesman called “Labour’s battle for Britain
After a brutal summer, the government is already disliked. Can Keir Starmer reassert the authority of the state?”

I don’t know if the article link will work for others. Of course, he does not mention private school VAT. They all seem to be dodging the issue. It seems to be too complicated to go into, too risky to take sides on. A bit like kids and school closures during Covid.

www.newstatesman.com/cover-story/2024/09/labours-battle-for-britain

So an article not mentioning this as an important issue only goes to show what an important issue this is?

pintofsnakebite · 06/09/2024 19:27

"Summer polling by Ipsos found that voters know full well you can’t get effective public services without paying for them. (It’s true, as Tony Blair insists in his new book, reviewed on page 40, that the AI revolution could short-circuit many problems, but that requires heavy initial investment.) Two in five backed increasing spending on public services even if they would pay more tax. So there is a buried advantage for Labour here: increasingly, looking around them, people “get it”.

FloralGums · 06/09/2024 19:28

Araminta1003 · 06/09/2024 19:23

Andrew Marr has written an excellent article in the New Statesman called “Labour’s battle for Britain
After a brutal summer, the government is already disliked. Can Keir Starmer reassert the authority of the state?”

I don’t know if the article link will work for others. Of course, he does not mention private school VAT. They all seem to be dodging the issue. It seems to be too complicated to go into, too risky to take sides on. A bit like kids and school closures during Covid.

www.newstatesman.com/cover-story/2024/09/labours-battle-for-britain

Or perhaps it’s not mentioned because it is only of interest to a very small number of people and most of those agree with it.

Sunshineonararainydayyy · 06/09/2024 19:31

EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime · 06/09/2024 18:44

Please, spare me the script from Rocky.

Rayner has been over-promoted. She’s a liability on legs. You should be very afraid she has such authority - it has not been earned, and she is hugely out of her depth.

If we are talking about politicians out of their depth Rayner’s already lasted longer than a lettuce.

In Year applications for places are notoriously harder to get than applying during the normal cycle. The council will have to provide a school place, it may even be out of county. I suspect they are trying to find out whether the person is actually going to really take the school place (akin to an estate agent making sure viewers are proceedable.) The correspondence is unquestionably poorly worded. The upshot is that PS parents aren’t going to be able to hedge their bets & keep their private school place until they get offered a place at a school they particularly want, they are going to have to withdraw & accept the place given will be a lottery. Those schools all will have children come & go so places do come up but in what years and when is uncertain. Bucks council won’t want to waste their time searching for & offering a place to someone who is going to stay put unless they get offered one of their preferred schools.

It will certainly be more straightforward for applicants for EYFS, Year7 & sixth form in the usual application cycle.

pintofsnakebite · 06/09/2024 19:31

It is actually a very good article. Talk of an overtly hostile media stirring up discontent.

"Much of this, I’m afraid, Keir Starmer and his leading ministers must simply ignore. Their entire case is that they are engaged on a long project of patient rebuilding; that enough of the public understands this to stay the course; and that therefore, they cannot allow themselves to be distracted or demoralised by any second-order issues."

Araminta1003 · 06/09/2024 19:34

@pintofsnakebite - what was your stance on prolonged Covid school closures, out of interest?

pintofsnakebite · 06/09/2024 19:36

School closures were the least of my worries during Covid if I'm honest.

Araminta1003 · 06/09/2024 19:40

“Despite the impressive parliamentary majority, the odds are not brilliant. Starmer came in with a historically low popular vote. After Tory austerity, after Covid, the “social rot” he identified in his recent Downing Street rose garden speech is pungent and still spreading. The spending challenge is intense. Demography and Brexit are against him.
So already, as he must have noticed recently, is most of the media, both old and new. On the street, memories are short, patience shorter still. The Prime Minister hasn’t yet shown himself able to grab the nation’s attention in a helpful way. He has made one strong “here’s the bad news” speech but he needs to be a better storyteller, to convey his sense of purpose and hope.
That said, there are reasons for optimism. As the autumn political season starts with a flurry of activity from all departments, this is a good moment to assess the new government’s progress so far. I want to pick out four crucial areas: the economy, law and order, personal reputation, and polling or popularity. In each case, the key theme is authority.”

“Communicating this point is vital – but the first problem is right there. Britain had the fastest growing economy in the G7 in the first half of the year; inflation is 2 per cent, leading to the Bank of England cutting interest rates at the beginning of August; unemployment is only marginally above the G7 average, and much lower than, say, in France. We have our economic problems, God knows, but it’s not exactly Desolation Island.
The truth is, to properly sell the story of its genuinely difficult inheritance and therefore its unpleasant decisions to come, Labour needs far more precision and explanation. Its problem is real. But fundamentally, it is a problem of expectation.
British voters still expect a full-fat, modern, generous welfare state; a <a class="break-all" href="https://www.newstatesman.com/tag/keir-starmerwww.newstatesman.com/tag/nhs" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">National Health Service able to respond to an ageing population in a timely way; a modern and inclusive education system, geared to a rapidly changing economy; and a benefits system that keeps children out of destitution. All this, and we now want a modern national defence for dangerous times. Year upon year of governments’ heedless reductions of the state have brought us to a point everybody understands.
But we don’t want to pay for that stronger, more sustaining state with higher taxes or by working harder. For decades we’ve been told we don’t need to. It’s true that after Covid, and after the energy shock of the Ukraine war, we are close to the all-time 1948 height of tax revenue; but overall taxation here is average, coming between the higher-tax Europeans and the lower-taxed Americans.”

Araminta1003 · 06/09/2024 19:41

@pintofsnakebite - that is not the question.

A traditional left wing Government would have put children ABOVE other things and limited school closures. Because we know that the effects, especially for poorer children, are devastating.

Araminta1003 · 06/09/2024 19:42

The fact is in this country, they have massive form for putting every one else ABOVE CHILDREN.

Araminta1003 · 06/09/2024 19:44

Except where it is conflicted because of unions and its allegiance to unions.

There is a massive conflict of interest in teaching unions with this private school VAT business.
The needs of children are being swept under the carpet, yet again.

Sunshineonararainydayyy · 06/09/2024 19:59

Araminta1003 · 06/09/2024 19:42

The fact is in this country, they have massive form for putting every one else ABOVE CHILDREN.

More and more children are living in poverty in the UK. There are recent cases of younger & younger children being involved in riots and hate crimes. We have to prioritise children. @Araminta1003 the new Gov have introduced a child task force aimed at reducing the causes & consequences of children living in poverty. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn081lyqw44o.amp

Parents walking their children to school

Starmer sets up taskforce for 4m UK children in poverty - BBC News

A child poverty taskforce has been announced with a pledge to leave "no stone unturned" in tackling the issue.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn081lyqw44o.amp

nearlylovemyusername · 06/09/2024 20:01

CeruleanBelt · 06/09/2024 18:03

She's exactly the sort we need in the government. We don't need any more privately educated MPs who are out of touch with the rest of the population. We've had decades of them.

The government should be representative of society.

The government should be representative of society.

If Rayner represents our society...

Moglet4 · 06/09/2024 20:01

strawberrybubblegum · 06/09/2024 16:45

It's the bit where they say "if you can provide evidence that you can no longer finance the independent school fees please advise and we can make a Local Authority non-preference application" that's the problem. "

(my emphasis)

State education isn't means tested.

The council has no justification for asking for that evidence, and they are saying that they'll only do a non-preference application if it's provided. That's not OK.

I actually agree with @CurlewKate that it seems likely to be a forgery. It's just too outrageous to be real.

If it is, then that would be a very, very worrying indication of the damage to our society this populist policy has caused.

Edited

I went on to the fb page and had a look today. The original letter is now on the Telegraph’s desk

Moglet4 · 06/09/2024 20:03

nearlylovemyusername · 06/09/2024 17:09

If genuine, parents should contact MP, BBC, Sky, Guardian etc

It’s with The Telegraph now

Araminta1003 · 06/09/2024 20:13

There are over 100000 children in private schools across the country with special educational needs.
Introducing an anomalous tax on parents to remove their children either because they cannot afford to pay school fees plus VAT or they don’t want to, is fundamentally against the best interests of children.
All children deserve to stay in their schools, their parental wealth either way should never be a consideration for politicians.
This is a policy that goes AGAINST the best interests of CHILDREN and it is fundamentally unacceptable.
I am disgusted by those in power across the board in their cowardice in not sticking up for children, for fear of reprise.

pintofsnakebite · 06/09/2024 20:25

Araminta1003 · 06/09/2024 19:41

@pintofsnakebite - that is not the question.

A traditional left wing Government would have put children ABOVE other things and limited school closures. Because we know that the effects, especially for poorer children, are devastating.

Lockdown lasted longer because the government refused to pay attention to what they were being told.

It is established fact that johnson not attending COBRA meetings and allowing football matches and cheltenham races to continue were instrumental in lockdown needing to be longer than taking action earlier.

Not to derail this thread but blaming a party not in power for trying to mitigate the consequences of an inept government is hardly the issue.

pintofsnakebite · 06/09/2024 20:35

It is also accepted that the fact that there were no women in the room when those decisions were made had disastrous consequences for families and children in terms of childcare, domestic violence and single parent families.

Whatever her GCSEs, Angela Rayner would have been a godsend at that table n

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