What if Keir Starmer had been forced to move school part way through?

[Kitsot]

I find it interesting that Keir Starmer attended a state grammar school and was allowed to stay on for free after it moved to private whilst he was there. He doesn’t seem to consider it an issue that children will need to be moved from private to state school part way through their time at a school due to the VAT imposition. I wonder how different his life would have turned out if he had instead been forced to leave his school and move to the local comprehensive or wherever had space.

Further to this, to me it would make more sense if VAT was only added to fees for children joining at the usual entry points from next September and then going forward for those years from that point. It would still be an unpopular policy but it would at least give parents time to apply for state schools within the normal entry rounds and children wouldn’t need to move school part way through, which can be hard even if it is between two similar types of schools. The downside is that it wouldn’t initially raise as much money as planned.

Just for transparency to add that I am in a fairly neutral position regarding this and have experience of both sectors. I myself am from a working-class background and went to a bog-standard comprehensive in the 1980s.

There were not many posts advising people of it. Where were those more ‘sensible parents’?

Anyone want to screen shot their sensible advice re the 2019 Labour manifesto

Or link to the thread where people were placing it at top of considerations on a private school question.

Even now you get people saying the policy hasn’t come in yet if people are leaving it’s not due to VAT

Which is also not the case. On realistic views of behaviour not hindsight or ignoring impact I’d say you could see it in last six months to year or so

You have missed employer pension contributions from your list of increases, although perhaps the school has withdrawn from TPS?
Of course if it has, that will in time lead to lower quality of teaching staff.

What baffles me with this whole VAT discussion is that the last government imposed big rises in employer TPS contributions on all state schools and participating private schools and yet there was hardly any discussion of it. Since the TPS is unfunded and contributions go straight back to the Treasury, this was a tax on all schools, why wasn't there outrage?

If I may repeat the point I made earlier, I think it is unreasonable to expect that a government will do what it said in its manifesto, the last one certainly did not.

What amazes me is that people call this a middle class problem.
Most of the middle classes can't afford private schools. When my kinds were at school we had a 6 figure salary but couldn't afford to put our 3 in private schools.

2019 manifesto isn’t the 2024 one I mean we’d have Self ID now if they stuck to the same each time

But still if it was a focus from posters back then link away

OP can you move locations? I appreciate it’s a big ask. We have 3 children in private school and can’t afford 20% so we’ve bought a house in a beautiful small town with a Grammar school and the primary schools are lovely, it’s a very lovely area so more than happy to move here and take the free state places. Is this an option? I know lots of parents at our schools who are doing similar, moving to nicer areas and moving their children schools over this. We had to live near our jobs (NHS so needed hospital) but we’ve now decided to move to private medicine , out of the NHS so we can live away from the city hospitals. And move and put our children in the local state schools. We wouldn’t have put them in the schools near where we live now so had to move to do this.

2019 manifesto? (See below) With a then quasi unelectable candidate? They were also going to get rid of academies? And try and get rid of private schools full stop? (Number 23)

This policy is new.
Since then private schools have already raised fees due to cost of living, pensions for teachers, eating into reserves for most during Covid - there will be a decimation of small private schools all across the country, many of which cater to children with SEN who have been utterly failed.

If you are pro this VAT policy, then you are pro affecting children with SEN negatively. That is an actual fact, born out by the statistics. I will only get on board with this policy if all quasi SEN schools up and down the country are fully exempt from VAT.

Schools policies in the manifesto

1. A £10.5 billion increase in the schools budget by 2022-23
2. A fairer funding formula “that leaves no child worse off”
3. Maximum class sizes of 30 for all primary school pupils
4. Scrapping key stage 1 and 2 SATs and baseline assessments, refocusing assessment on “supporting pupil progress”
5. £160 million arts pupil premium to fund arts education for every primary school child (cost rises to £175m by 2023-24)
6. A review of the curriculum to ensure that it “enriches students and covers subjects such as black history and continues to teach issues like the Holocaust”
7. Bringing free schools and academies under the control of parents, teachers and local communities
8. Giving schools control over budgets and day-to-day decisions, overseen by “an accountable governing body with elected representatives”
9. Putting councils in charge of admissions and allowing them to open schools

10. Putting NES regional offices in charge of delivery and co-ordination of schools, including peer-to-peer improvement based on the London Challenge 11. A common rulebook for all schools, set out in legislation 12. Replacing Ofsted with a new body “designed to drive school improvement” 13. A teacher supply service to tackle wasted money going to private agencies 14. Making schools accountable for the outcomes of pupils who leave their rolls 15. “Proper regulation” of all education providers 16. Reform of alternative provision 17. Extending free school meals to all primary school children 18. Encouraging breakfast clubs 19. Tackling the cost of school uniforms 20. The return of the school support staff negotiating body and national pay settlements for teachers 21. Closing the tax loopholes that currently apply to private schools 22. Charging VAT on private school fees 23. Tasking the Social Justice Commission with advising on the integration of private schools and the creation of a comprehensive education system

A realistic view. This behaviour is more likely than the mn mention of 2019 Labour manifesti or no movement at all, or only when policy comes in

Parents of those children in private education - this message is directed at you.

Theres a fantastic, informative Facebook group you can join which gives up to date information about the policy and also weekly updates about the motions in place to contest the policy. It didn’t get passed before due to these contested issues- there is a council opposing it and going down the legal route.

If the policy gets passed - private schools will look at reducing the fees they currently charge and then (as it will be a legal requirement to do so) add the VAT on so it’s inline with the current fees. They will take away bursaries and scholarships as to not increase the fees further. (Appreciate that’s not ideal for those children who currently have them but they can’t justify increasing fees and others having it for discounted or free).

If the policy comes into place, private schools can now claim back the VAT from building work from previous years and going forward, this will allow them to absorb some of the costs.

Those parents of children who have put their child in due to SEN needs - two points- firstly - if your child needs an EHCP start the process. There’s some brilliant third parties who will help you get this and help you with the tribunal appeal. This means the EHCP can go to state school with you if you move OR it means you won’t pay the VAT as labour said children with EHCPs are exempt.

Secondly, if your child doesn’t have the need level and wouldn’t get an EHCP talk to the school, I’m sure they would prefer to keep you than lose you over a relatively small about of money.

Those parents with their own businesses- get an account and use your child allowance gift aid that is tax free (just this alone pays for the VAT in one year).

If you need to move into state schools- you can move location to a Grammar school area or better school. If you do this before the natural period of transitions you’ll be guaranteed a place. Don’t panic!

Yeah - I understand about 20% (from the survey the independent school body carried out) will have no problem paying the increase. But 80% will be making choices and it’s a consequence of the increase. I’m not for or against the proposal to add the 20% VAT but I am against that they are mitigating the consequences.

In one way it’s freed us up and made us better off for when we’re older. We will put our saved money into our pensions and buy rental properties. I also think it’s very hypocritical as a policy- state schools vary widely. As consultants we work in a city and the schools are not great locally. However , we can move and our children have free (can you imagine free no monthly fees to pay!!) state places in a beautiful middle class village . The schools they are moving to are as nice as their private schools and now we’ve taken the decision to move to private medicine , rather than NHS shift work where we needed the flexibility boarding, we can pick up and drop out kids in to school everyday.

woefully low educational standards of your own children

Wow! This attitude from the parents who are wealthy enough to send their children to private school towards the remaining 93% of us who aren’t is the reason you are getting no sympathy about price increases.

That's because But Jeremy Corbyn in 2019 so it wasn't necessary to find alternatives.

I take it you don't believe in democracy since the government was elected on a manifesto of implementing this policy?

Children move schools all the time. Perhaps ask how children moving from fee paying to state provision have done would be a more useful enquiry?

You are right, I should have linked to a few threads.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/3697327-Corbyn-vat-private-schools?flipped=1
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/the_staffroom/3698956-Private-school-teachers-would-you-stay-on-and-work-for-Corbyn
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3702484-To-ask-you-what-you-think-would-be-bad-about-a-Corbyn-government
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/2946005-If-Labour-win-are-your-DCs-coming-out-of-Private-Education
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/3578412-private-school-fees?flipped=1&page=1
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3703481-Jeremy-Corbyn-and-DD
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2929990-AIBU-that-VAT-on-school-fees-makes-no-economical-sense

I believe Philip Hammond also looked at VAT on fees - so there may well be some overlap in commentary.

It’s almost as Corbyn didn’t get defeated and his manifesto rejected

That wasn't what I posted. You said it wasnt discussed. I suggested it had been flagged in print and on MN.

I think there will be others who do similar and it’ll be more common than going back to Corbyn manifesto on this thread

I don’t have children? This doesn’t affect me. I was in state schools. But as a human you can see people struggling and it’s horrible to see. You can see from here most need the wrap around care private schools offers so they can do the jobs we need them to do in society- if I have a heart attack at night I need a doctor in A and E and that doctor might have put their child in private school and boarded them that night so they can do their job. They may not have the privilege of having a grandparent to look after their child so have to pay for it.

The policy and subsequent monies raised doesn’t make any influential monetary difference to state school children (0.7p in fact per child) what we should be concentrating on is asking the government where they will raise the rest from and what their plan actually is to raise the standards in state schools. This is a lovely headline title to deflect from the actual crisis in state education. The problem with labour deflecting attention away from state schools and on to this topic is it causes discussion and chat and they are able to say they’ve achieved something but it causes a ripple and has knock on effects on an already struggling state system. Let’s get labour to improve state schools to that of private school standards. Oh and yes I did vote labour by the way.

Bingo!

I think you missed the pp bringing it up.

Bingo them

what we should be concentrating on is asking the government where they will raise the rest from and what their plan actually is to raise the standards in state schools

Hear, hear!

(I would have loved to have kept my child in state education BTW)

Everything else we buy (apart from some necessities) has VAT slapped on it, so why should buying education be any different?
And as pps have said, loads of kids change schools, sometimes more than once, and it doesn't do them any harm.

Other than a bit of a culture shock from moving from private to state, the affected children will be fine. If your child is going to do well, it'll do well in a state school too.

Here it is 2019 manifesto in pp, not brought up by me I think it’s entirely irrelevant

Apparently some of those posters on private school threads were sharing their foresight in 2019 for 2024 VAT coming in

I agree op, I think a staggered approach would probably be best for various reasons.

I really think the likelihood of children actually moving schools is overstated on mn though. Of course there will be a handful of people who are stretched down to their last fiver, but those would be the ones at risk of having to move anyway if fees increased more than expected or circumstances changed. But surely most of the rest could afford it if they too really stretched themselves, they just might not have chosen to at the beginning and now they will have to choose whether keeping the children at the same school is worth it...