What if Keir Starmer had been forced to move school part way through?

[Kitsot]

I find it interesting that Keir Starmer attended a state grammar school and was allowed to stay on for free after it moved to private whilst he was there. He doesn’t seem to consider it an issue that children will need to be moved from private to state school part way through their time at a school due to the VAT imposition. I wonder how different his life would have turned out if he had instead been forced to leave his school and move to the local comprehensive or wherever had space.

Further to this, to me it would make more sense if VAT was only added to fees for children joining at the usual entry points from next September and then going forward for those years from that point. It would still be an unpopular policy but it would at least give parents time to apply for state schools within the normal entry rounds and children wouldn’t need to move school part way through, which can be hard even if it is between two similar types of schools. The downside is that it wouldn’t initially raise as much money as planned.

Just for transparency to add that I am in a fairly neutral position regarding this and have experience of both sectors. I myself am from a working-class background and went to a bog-standard comprehensive in the 1980s.

The assumption is always that the people opposing “don’t understand” or “aren’t impacted”. It’s ridiculous. No amount of explaining will shift that presumption, because the alternative is to face the fact that there are many users of fee paying schools who agree with this tax.

You seem to miss out the word choose.

@EasternStandard "Maybe the next tax rise will make you both happier and you can pay more. Or there’s voluntary payment too"

I would not be surprised if there is some sort of tax hike at some time somewhere in the next few years. I will be happy to pay it.

I suppose that some people will never be able to grasp the fact that people can be motivated by a sense of justice and fairness rather than self interest. If you base all of your political views on an understanding of what is advantageous for you as an individual, I guess it might be hard to believe that others don't actually think like that. Hence jumping to the kind of conclusion that people could only ever support the idea of higher taxes if they are going to paid by other people.

There really isn't much to be gained from arguing this point because I know that you simply won't be able to comprehend or accept where I and many others are coming from on this. Such different and incompatible values and paradigms...we are unlikely to find any mutual understanding here.

Not really.

Your random words are for your posts nothing to do with mine. But if you are offering to pay more go for it.

No you are championing a tax you are not paying. And I get it’s easier to

If you said you were voluntarily paying extra tax I’d get that more from your posts

Yes, I am championing a tax that I am not paying, because I believe that it is just and fair. I champion other taxes that I am paying or would be paying because I believe that they are just and fair. There is no difference because my political views are not dictated by my own pocket. I know that this is hard to get your head round.

As for the voluntary tax thing that right wingers love to throw out there...no, the whole point of taxation as far as I'm concerned is that it isn't voluntary. I choose to direct my voluntary contributions through the charity sector instead, as I believe that it is often more effective and more efficient than the state. The advantage that the state has over the charity sector is that it can collect money from everyone and not simply those who choose to contribute.

Like I say, I know you won't get it. My values are incomprehensible to you to the point that you are not able to believe me. That's fine, I don't need your validation, nor do I need your permission to carry on arguing in favour of a tax that doesn't directly affect me. And I will carry on doing that because I think it's the right thing to do. Luckily for me, our newly elected government seems to agree... and hopefully they won't stop here.

I am already paying more for many things as a result of Liz Truss' plan to enrich gamblers from Tufton Street.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves Why do you think anyone opposed to the VAT is motivated by self interest? State schooling is very important to me — it’s terribly run and massively underfunded and I would happily pay more tax to make the system better for everyone. Sadly, I don’t see this policy improving state schools at all and the tax only makes it harder for children to access better schooling if their local options are not suitable.

Obviously some state schools suit some children very well and they and their families are the luckiest ones. Some state schools don’t suit some children and only a fraction of those children end up at a school that works better for them via private options but I don’t think throwing more of those students into the state schools as they currently are will help anyone.

I don’t find it difficult I find it expected.

We’ve had a good state experience and there is some goodwill there. Maybe the users of the actual sector makes more sense for this. If you were saying that it’d align more closely to your view of being socially minded.

ie not someone else paying

I don’t think people get to say look how ready I am for others to pay these are my values etc

Maybe I’m more ready to do it than others. Especially if it was targeted for something I think could change In state.

It reads as if you think if somebody doesn't pay a particular tax, they aren't entitled to have an opinion on it.

Essentially that locks out swathes of the electorate from writing their views on a whole range of taxes. I have never paid a windfall tax but I still have an opinion on them.

I think if everyone with kids in outstanding state secondaries (comp, grammar, faith) was ordered, by law, at the same time as VAT on private schools, to pay £3000 a year for the privilege of being in an outstanding state school, what would the reaction be? And then those who can’t afford it would just be told to move their kids somewhere else and told kids move all the time etc. And those on bursaries, tough, and those with SEN tough too.
That is essentially what is being asked of private school parents.

Is it wine time Friday?

No, it’s tea and favourite biscuit time.

Idk £3k is pretty high but there be more who can afford it to make it lower

I’d get the socially minded values if this was proposed from pp. Seems a bit much to claim the accolade on behalf of others though

You seem to have misunderstood. I am not saying that people couldn't oppose VAT on private schools for reasons other than self interest, or that anyone who isn't motivated by self interest must necessarily agree with my point of view. I am merely responding to the suggestion from @EasternStandard that I am only arguing in favour of this policy because it doesn't affect me directly.

@EasternStandard - there are plenty of outstanding state schools that primarily are there for a very rich catchment where these people could easily afford to pay up a bit. Most of these schools have very low numbers of children on FSM so are easy to find on that measure alone. Those kids would have to be excluded, of course.

I picked 3k because the average private school cost is apparently 15k and 20 per cent of that would be 3k.

Personally, I would be happy to pay it if it helped the state sector. I think we could afford it if we cut back on most holidays and never upgrade our car. I think most of the people in our school could probably make it work too. They would not be happy about it though but if you gave them the choice of either pay or move schools, most would pay.

My dc didn't go to an outstanding secondary, so this wouldn't have impacted me personally, but no, I absolutely don't agree that we should be pricing poorer families out of outstanding state schools and effectively privatising them.

I would prefer to see some sort of lottery system that would prevent people from buying their way into the best catchment areas in the first place, though I appreciate that there are logistical challenges in making this work.

We don't need more private schools FFS!

If you're worried about people buying their way into good catchments etc, then increase stamp duty or change the way we do council tax etc. Privatising the best state schools is not the answer to anything!

That to me is socially minded

It’s not happening so I guess we’re lucky to have that goodwill, not get hit with an extra 20% tax

Maybe I should say I’m social minded for wanting others to pay although it really doesn’t fit well to me, it’s costing me nothing extra

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves "If you're worried about people buying their way into good catchments etc, then increase stamp duty or change the way we do council tax etc. Privatising the best state schools is not the answer to anything!"

Or change admissions policy.

Surely according to your own logic, you shouldn't have an opinion on this topic at all?

Yes, I agree - this would be my favoured option. As per my suggestion above re a lottery system, but would be very interested in hearing other ideas about how this could be done.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves - you are not really changing anything though when it comes to the most sought after state schools in the country. Most have already bought their way in one way or another and if they have to pay up a bit towards a general state school budget, you are not privatising the schools. You could insist that 10 per cent have to be FSM and they would not pay. It is perfectly doable and most people would pay up. In fact, they already paid to get there in the first place. So where is the actual difference to private schools? I really cannot see it conceptually.
It is the same as making part of the NHS means tested and asking for some contribution. They did it with prescriptions years ago as a start. If we want better services for all, why not?

I didn’t say you couldn’t have an opinion. I think socially minded goes with actually paying more not others doing it.

If I did pay extra for the good state schools then yeh I reckon it would fit. Other people? No then I wouldn’t say so