To think unless you’ve been to private school you don’t really understand why it’s so valuable?

[huopp]

I have so many people telling me the state system is fine, a private school just has better facilities, that the teachers aren’t any better, that the extra curricular stuff can be done after school at a state school but at a different venue etc etc…

whilst all the above is true, it isn’t what makes a private education valuable? And that you have to actually have lived it, been to one, to get the whole experience it gives you across the board and not just academically?

i think this is why a lot of people with ‘new money’ don’t always spend it on school fees. In contrast those who have been privately educated mostly want the same for their children.

Dd2 as I’ve said before straddles both groups socially and adores her private school best friends but this is her view too.

TheaBrandt I think you said some time ago that your dd doesn’t meet her private school and state school friends at the same time?
Maybe she should invite some of both to a gathering so they can see that they are all just human beings.

It's precisely because DH and I went to private schools that we chose to send our DC to the local state school.

Not my place to micro manage 15 year olds social lives.

I’ll get shouted at but frankly it’s the middle class kids at both state and private with professional parents who mix naturally. Let’s leave it there.

TheaBrandt · Today 09:23
Not my place to micro manage 15 year olds social lives.

Do her state school friends know she mixes with the ‘enemy’?

Weird outlook! No one is an enemy. It’s just who you feel comfortable being friends with. They just think Dd is “posh” but in an affectionate sort of way.

TheaBrandt · Today 09:35
Weird outlook! No one is an enemy

Hmm…..judging by numerous comments on here I’d say privately educated children are definitely regarded as the enemy.
Also, your daughter may not have experienced this but my step-daughter was bullied virtually into a breakdown at her state school for being posh.

That’s awful. Sadly unkindness knows no social boundaries some kids can be vile regardless of the school they attend. Most kids aren’t though.

The most well-rounded kids I taught were state sector and because of having experience of both I will be educating my kids in the state sector.

@RealLimeAnt what is your definition of ‘well-rounded’ and how did these well-rounded children you taught demonstrate this?

Better awareness that there are a broad range of people in society. A better awareness of the way that most people live. Generally less entitled. More awareness of others needs and their own privilege. Better manners in most state schools towards visitors.

To be completely clear, I firmly believe every child and family is different and you can only do what is right for your family. I have also only seen about 50 schools and there are thousands so it is a generalisation but based on the evidence I have I see no real benefit to the financial outlay. Doesn’t mean it’s not the right choice for some kids though, only that the generalisation that state is somehow worse than private is not at all what I’ve seen.

Personally I believe it is about what you yourself model to your DCs. I have friends who are billionaires and also friends who live on council estates as single mothers. Whilst I am British born I spent a lot of time in other countries and I take people as people. My DC have done a lot of music and come across a lot of children from the very top private schools to the more local comps but what all these children have in common is parents who care and aspire for them. A lot of the local school lot could have gotten bursaries to top private schools had they chosen that path. There are high achieving children who stand out in all schools. And there are also more average children in all schools, I believe also in the most selective schools. Even in our London grammars some kids aren’t that clever and have peaked early. We should all be kind to each other.
And I do agree that very rich kids also get prejudice thrown their way. It happens to everyone. Some people are judgemental. We need to teach our kids not to be. The anti elite rhetoric is as harmful to us as a country as the benefit and immigrant bashing. It’s toxic.

only that the generalisation that state is somehow worse than private is not at all what I’ve seen.
RealLimeAnt. Thank you for answering my question.
Lots of people on mn have said that state schools are superior to private schools - in which case why the sneering at them and the desire by people like Angela Rayner to abolish them?
If people want to waste their money on an inferior education then that’s up to them, surely?

Better manners in most state schools towards visitors.
I can only speak from my own experience, but if any pupil at my dd’s fee paying school had been ill mannered towards any visitor, whether parents, delivery people or anyone, the school would’ve come down on them like a ton of bricks.

@Barbadossunset absolutely. It’s a choice by parents for their child. No aspersions need to be cast on either side. Different areas of the country will be different in terms of provision too.

I think the private school VAT thing is a much bigger and longer conversation that has far too much nuance to easily discuss online. The BBC had an interesting article on it the other day with an advisor to Michael Gove and an independent school teacher. My colleagues who work in private all have a plan to essentially negate the rises (some teachers, some bursary staff, some governors). If a school hasn’t prepared for this over the past couple of years that is a shame for the parents as there are probably savings to be made or other ways to recoup tax.

I have to say, I studied medicine and didn’t notice any difference in knowledge levels between me or the public school kids either. Either subject matter knowledge or general knowledge.

I did notice that they all seemed very sheltered and naive. I am talking about things like knowing not how to pay utility bills, work out tax, manage public transport, ask for refunds in shops. General adulting. They didn’t seem to have had much independence prior to uni.

What exactly do you mean by ‘all walks of life’? In our area, I think most state schools don’t deliver this, and actually there is more diversity at our private school. Ethnic, racial AND economic. Our local state schools are 99% white British, and economically reflect the economic segregation driven by housing - village schools are all middle / upper middle class; the local town is all lower to middle income. Our private on the other hand is racially and ethnically more diverse than the population, but also includes a number of refugees and children in care alongside working class children of tradesmen and farmers as well as more white collar professionals. It is not representative of the local population, but there is far more diversity. our private school also has a strong ethos around community service and social justice, whereas local state schools not so much.

there is a lot less violence and low grade poor behaviour, though, as everyone wants to be there. My dc admittedly don’t know how to deal with bad behaviour, which I suppose is a potential weakness depending on where the end up, but honestly given what we gain I am happy to compromise on the ‘how to deal with assholes’ part of their education

Of course they are more sheltered. Unless they actively choose to do so they are interacting only with the section of society who can afford private school. You are paying for that bubble. The downside is less street smart / sections of society you don’t overlap with.

I totally agree. Our private school is far more diverse than the local catchment state school.

20% of our school are bursary places, so it’s not true to say that they’re only mixing with those who can afford private school. Others are from families where multiple family members chip in to cover the fees. They are not all from families where the parents are fully funding the fees themselves.

The downside is less street smart

This is too much of a generalisation. A private school in the middle of a busy town/city where pupils have to walk around between lessons is giving much more of a balanced view of life than those attending a state school on the edge of a small rural village for example.

The bursary thing is a bt of a red herring in terms of diversity, I think.

As a 'bursary family' with a child who has come from a state school, I'd say you get a very different demographic with children on bursaries to the vast majority of children in a state school. We are not very well off, but that doesn't mean we don't value education. Anyone who has ever seen a bursary form will know that the hoops you have to jump through are vast - so you simply will not get families who do not care about education. or are in difficult circumstances that don't give them the headspace to think about their children's future, because they'd never be able to manage the process.

Its those children who are going to make life more difficult at an ordinary school, because their needs are often not being met externally - the sort of children who get bursaries are not those children at all.

In most cases bursaries are given to children with scholarships too - they're a net benefit in terms of behaviour and academics to the school DD2 is - she's far better read than most of her new peers, and outpacing many of them academically (though she isn't there because she was selected for her academic prowess at all - they didn't even ask about her academic grades.

Having a large number of bursary places at a school doesn't make it 'diverse' like a state comprehensive school - for it to be like one you would have to take a cross-section of people from the area, most of whom wouldn't even think to apply, and not tie any of it to the ability to complete an exam or even fill in a form.

Her new school peers are indeed less 'street smart'. DD2 takes the bus and train home from her boarding school - its 100 miles. Most of her friends have never even been on a bus to the nearest town. But then DD2 has come from an inner London comp- hugely diverse but with academic ambitions for its students who face many many external challenges. If she'd moved from the local rural comp to her new school we'd see far less of a difference.

You could be right about paying bills, etc -I 'lived in' for four years, so 'adulting' didn't really apply. But I think there's a difference between the kind of social graces that the privately educated had and I didn't, versus basic stuff like figuring out public transport. The former is much harder to work out on your own, and the consequences of getting it wrong are more severe: think missing out on graduate jobs, as opposed to missing a bus.

I did notice that they all seemed very sheltered and naive. I am talking about things like knowing not how to pay utility bills, work out tax, manage public transport, ask for refunds in shops.

@Saschka loads of people who live at home until they go to university don’t have to work out tax or pay utility bills. This isn’t confined to privately educated people.

Everyone knows how valuable private school is…that’s why so many people are against it!

No it's just gives them a decent education. We've tried state a few times with the kids and it's always been shite (always good/outstanding). DH and were also state educated and it was awful.

My child is 11, has been privately educated throughout.

She can take public transport (our local equivalent of the Tube), can ask for refunds, deal with issues herself (I nipped to the loo, she had entered the restaurant, requested a table and the relevant allergy menus - not even her allergy, mine!). Not a local restaurant and not one she had ever gone to before.

She is extremely independent, will talk to anyone and can hold an excellent conversation which she pitches at the level of whoever she’s talking to, from toddler to adult.

I think what you’re attributing to state/private is more to do with individuals.

Not sure I follow your meaning - if you think it IS valuable, why would you be against it? Is no one allowed nice things just because everyone cannot access it? How would eliminating a ‘valuable’ option improve anything- is that not just levelling down to lowest common denominator?

if you think it ISN’T valuable, why do you care? I think fancy cars, clothes and handbags are pretty pointless, but don’t have a stance on whether others should be able to buy them, I just accept that other people have different priorities.

I’m not against it. I went and loved it.

Many people who are against it feel that way because they know it gives kids an advantage. Ergo they know it has a value beyond a standard state education.

They recognise it and dislike it exactly because it is valuable.