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STEINER WALDORF SCHOOLS AND INSTITUTIONS #2

1001 replies

zzooey · 05/04/2008 19:37

The steiner waldorf thread ran to a halt because apparently a 1000 messages are a maximum. Let's continue here!!

OP posts:
DianaW · 26/04/2008 18:40

I may not really understand how regular users use mumsnet, but there are hundreds of other active threads here, they don't bother me because I don't look at them. Is there something different about what people are doing on this thread that makes it more noticeable or problematic for other users of the site? If there is a way to minimize the intrusiveness somehow, please let us know. But the way most such forums work is you read the threads you are interested in and don't look at the others.

barking · 26/04/2008 18:46

I'm not going to apologise for capital letters or for the numerous steiner waldorf threads. The fact that it hides its true belief system of anthroposophy is an urgent issue and it needs addressing - especially with UK schools looking for public funding and Hereford succeeding.
This has been a long time coming and there is an awful lot that needs to be said. The fact that it appears in active conversations is a good thing, it may alert other parents looking for alternative education to see the other side of the coin, it may even save prospective parents a lot of money and heartache.
If parents are seeking alternative education for their children, I recommend Human Scale Education

barking · 26/04/2008 18:51

DianaW and PeteK - I really don't think there is any distress to be honest, it's as simple as looking down the list of active conversations or clicking on 'threads I'm on'.
I've only just been made aware that posters can hide topics so they don't appear on their active conversations anyway.

PeteK · 26/04/2008 19:07

"DianaW and PeteK - I really don't think there is any distress to be honest, it's as simple as looking down the list of active conversations or clicking on 'threads I'm on'.
I've only just been made aware that posters can hide topics so they don't appear on their active conversations anyway."

Thank you Barking. That's the way I thought it worked too. I just bookmarked my browser directly to this thread - so I don't even see the other stuff. I suspect there will be a few "Can't we all just get along" posts from time to time... but I can't agree with you more - this is a VERY important issue that deserves attention. I see Waldorf's social dysfunction as an issue that puts children in jeopardy every single day. People who say "Enough already" to me are wasting their breath. Kids come first.

barking · 26/04/2008 19:18

That's ok PeteK - my feathers were slightly ruffled.
I don't want to feel that anyone should have to justify being here or on any other thread.
I think Mumsnet is big enough for everyone

northernrefugee39 · 26/04/2008 19:29

Willow,I post on lots of other threads on mumsnet, ( and also, like barking, change my name sometimes, because I was/am stalked by a pro steiner anthroposophist and don't want hin to have personal info about me which i post on other threads here )

These threads do ramble and digress, I agree.
They are full of strange anthroposophical nonsense too.

On the other hand, they have opened alot of eyes to what Steiner education truly involves, many people are very grateful for the information, first hand experiences, and what to ask and look for when finding out about the schools and organisation, and that's a very good thing.
As Barking poiints out, the Steiner organisation behaves in a cult like manner, and is watched as a cult in various countries.

They are now due, in Hereford, to receive millions of state money.

It needs to be out in the open.

Janni · 26/04/2008 19:30

I agree, barking and every now and again people on MN say 'oh shut up already' about any manner of subjects.

northernrefugee39 · 26/04/2008 19:45

Diana, Pete, Janni and Barking are right!
Mumsnet likes a bit of plain speaking.
It's why it's such a good site.

I think it's good when people come in and blast off.

The Steiner threads have got a reputation though, they are used as a metaphor on other threads. They are talked about. Not in good terms.
Though some people apparently like having a look 'cos they're so bonkers.

Mumsnet irregular verbs
bumperlicious My children are home educated Your children go to Motessori Her children go to a STEINER SCHOOL

cod's thread
if oyu cant get qyoted on a steiner thread then you are NO ONE

zippitoes thread
Oh... ...me that steiner thread is...... weird where are they from

one of boco's favourites-
Steiner threads are like a cave of goblins from another realm. It's good. Wed 23-Apr-08 20:47:16

willow · 26/04/2008 20:09

Wasn't saying that you shouldn't be here - more was just interested as to how you all had suddenly appeared and what had proved the catalyst. As for knowing other mm'ers from other sites, nope, I haven't got a clue where they go when they are not on here. But yes, I do use the internet and email - would be bit daft not to and bloody impossible to post on here if I didn't use the former.

northernrefugee39 · 26/04/2008 20:29

Willow, one of the reasons so many Steiner people congregate here, is that other forums and chat boards haven't allowed these discussions to take place.
I don't know if you're aawre of the bee,/Eva/ a 60 yr old anthroposophist, who has been on these thrads spouting nonsense and linking to his sites?
He also has been stalking(me in particular,) guessing who i am, assuming my name, posting what he thinks is my name on mumsnet, talking about my maiden name, saying he doesn't want to find out where I live etc etc.
Basically following me from places, (and often, in actual fact, getting it wrong and confusing me with someone else, which is quite amusing)
The anthroposophists are so afraid that these discussions and people telling their stories will stop them recruiting initiates, that the forums are threatend with law suites, blocked or deleted.

Mumsnet has a policy of free speech it seems.

willow · 26/04/2008 20:53

NR39 - thanks for making things bit clearer. Wondered what had started the migration.

Powerofjoy2004 · 26/04/2008 22:26

Pete,

Your analysis of "Anthroposophy Compared with Religion" shows clearly how devious Anthroposophists are in their attempts to deceive people. It's just more confirmation that they know they are being dishonest.

PeteK · 26/04/2008 22:44

Oh, I just happened on my copy of the full text of the Claire McConnel article mentioned earlier in this thread. Here is the text:

By RICK KARLIN, Staff writer
First published: Thursday, July 17, 2003

Tucked away in a verdant corner of Columbia County, Hawthorne Valley
School appears to offer a kinder, gentler way of teaching.

Parents praise what they call its unique child-centered approach,
which is part New Age and part throwback to the way things were a
century ago. An organic farm across the road serves as a summer camp
for students in affiliated schools.

The first sign of trouble came last year when one couple learned
their daughter had been strapped into her chair with a leather belt.

Since then, more than a dozen parents have removed their elementary
school youngsters amid complaints about disciplinary tactics by one
of the teachers at Hawthorne Valley. Punishment included tying the
hands of students and taping their mouths shut if they misbehaved.

The teacher who doled it out, Claire McConnell, apologized, saying in
a June 24 letter, "I am sorry for my disciplinary misjudgment, very
sorry. ... I request your forgiveness."

Her colleagues wouldn't discuss the situation other than to say they
are moving to put the furor behind them.

"We're still working on it," said Patrice Maynard, a teacher and
mentor to McConnell. McConnell is the daughter of Sen. Mitch
McConnell, a Republican from Kentucky. She did not return phone
messages.

"She's a young teacher, a learning teacher," Maynard said. Maynard
referred further questions to a letter promising parents that "errors
in disciplinary action would not be repeated."

Corporal punishment is forbidden in public schools, but the "law is
silent" on the matter of private schools, said Bill Hirschen, a state
Education Department spokesman.

Parents who talked with the Times Union stressed that McConnell's
actions were out of character for Hawthorne Valley, one of the
best-known Waldorf Schools on the East Coast.

"We're not knocking Waldorf schools in general," said Bob Wohlfeld,
whose daughter was tied to her chair when she wouldn't settle down.
Wohlfeld and his wife, DeeAnn Veeder, removed the girl after she
finished second grade in June.

Waldorf Schools are based on the teachings of Rudolf Steiner, a late
19th-early 20th century Austrian thinker and writer. Steiner believed
children undergo distinct stages of emotional, physical and
intellectual development, and their education should reflect that.

Hawthorne Valley serves approximately 300 students in grades K-12 and
has a faculty and staff of about 30, according to the school's
website.

Youngsters at Waldorf Schools are encouraged to observe the natural
world. The curriculum emphasizes art and handwriting. Immersion in
reading skills doesn't begin until third grade, and students keep the
same teacher through eighth grade. Boys and girls practice dance-like
movements called eurythmy. In a marked departure from the mainstream,
computers are not part of the program for the younger students.

Hawthorne Valley shares a 400-acre spread with a summer camp and farm
based on Steiner's theory of biodynamics, a variation on organic
growing. During a visit on Wednesday, the school was closed for
summer vacation, but there was plenty of activity. Some kids had
returned from a swim. Business was brisk at the organic food store
where a bulletin board contained fliers for yurts and a nearby
Buddhist temple, typical of the numerous opportunities that exist for
spiritual seekers in the surrounding region.

Thanks to the locale and the school's distinctive educational
approach, Hawthorne Valley draws people from near and far.

Mary Anne Davis and her husband moved up from Brooklyn three years
ago to enroll their child. "It was right up our alley," said Davis, a
ceramic maker. "We really see eye to eye on a lot of issues."

Wohlfeld, who hosts the Wakin' Up With Wolf morning talk show on
WPIX-FM, moved with his wife and kids from Saratoga Springs to be
closer to the school, which he said makes the current situation all
the more frustrating.

Parents now say they may have been slow to acknowledge problems.
"That it was more than just a moment's bad judgment we did not want
to consider because we really wanted this to work," said Wohlfeld.

"We were a little dumbstruck," Wohlfeld said of their reaction when
they learned their daughter had been strapped down.

"I basically said, 'Don't ever do that again,' " Veeder recalled
telling McConnell. Davis said her son had his mouth Scotch taped shut
after another student jokingly suggested that remedy for the boy's
talkative ways.

The child was also strapped to a chair, becoming something of a
classroom hero after he strutted around the room with his chair
strapped to his back, the mother said.

Tracy Ferdinand said her daughter was so upset that she vomited when
she got home after seeing a classmate have his hands tied and forced
to sit alone during recess. One time, a child had to sit atop a steep
outdoor staircase at the two-story schoolhouse.

Parents who left Hawthorne Valley stressed they admire the school and
stand four-square behind the Waldorf approach.

"It's a wonderful mix if it works," said Ferdinand.

Mostly, though, they expressed frustration at what they viewed as a
closing of the ranks by staff members, many of whom have been there
for years.

"If you spoke up too much, you were considered a problem parent,"
said Veeder, who added that school officials, including their
daughter's teacher, raised no objections when they said they were
leaving the school.

The appeal of Waldorf Schools, along with an ongoing exodus from New
York City to the Hudson Valley, almost guarantees there will be
plenty of new students, at the school which charges about $8,000 a
year tuition.

The state Education Department has little authority over what goes on
at Hawthorne Valley.

The school is registered with the state, even though private schools
don't need to do so. Columbia County District Attorney Beth Cozzolino
said she's heard no complaints from local police agencies or others
about the school.

Hawthorne Valley did come under scrutiny in 1997 when the school was
shut down for several weeks after an outbreak of whooping cough and
county Health Department officials learned that about half the
students had not been vaccinated.

Some parents at the time said they objected to immunizations and
wanted their children to avoid them.

That episode didn't appear to spark the kind of internal strife that
the school is seeing regarding the discipline incidents.

Ultimately some parents say they are disappointed by the seeming lack
of accountability, similar to what soured them on public schools in
the first place.

"They need to wake up," Veeder said.
All Times Union materials copyright 1996-2003, Capital Newspapers
Division of The Hearst Corporation, Albany, N.Y.

PeteK · 26/04/2008 23:23

I really like this part... it shows how brainwashed Waldorf parents are - and explains why abuse often continues quietly:

*
Tracy Ferdinand said her daughter was so upset that she vomited when
she got home after seeing a classmate have his hands tied and forced
to sit alone during recess. One time, a child had to sit atop a steep
outdoor staircase at the two-story schoolhouse.

Parents who left Hawthorne Valley stressed they admire the school and
stand four-square behind the Waldorf approach.

"It's a wonderful mix if it works," said Ferdinand.
*

"Other than that, how did you like the play Mrs. Lincoln?"

Parents are convinced that these are isolated incidents.

"The first sign of trouble came last year when one couple learned their daughter had been strapped into her chair with a leather belt."

The statement above indicates trouble went on for the better part of a year before parents realized what was happening. This can happen easily in Waldorf because communication between parents is discouraged:

Listening to how brainwashed these parents continue to be - AFTER THEIR CHILDREN HAVE BEEN BOUND AND GAGGED BY THEIR TEACHER... well, I leave it up to the reader to decide whether there is something creepy going on here.

Joe90 · 26/04/2008 23:49

I have skim read this thread with horror as I had no idea what Steiner schools were like, I presumed they were similar to Montessori. It is worrying that many parents get the impression that a child with any kind of SEN, for instance would benefit from the supposedly gentle, nururing, unpressurised ethos. Is the Scandinavian idea of not teaching reading until 7 linked to this philosophy, I thought it was meant to lead to higher literacy and that our system is bad for boys because they can't cope with formal teaching at 4 or 5! I always presumed as well that Camphill communities were nice places, and similar to the Christian Taize movement, what are they like if they consider the disabled to be demons?

Powerofjoy2004 · 27/04/2008 02:56

There's a news story out of Florida today about a first grade student at a public school being strapped to a chair with her mouth taped shut.

Police are investigating. Psychologists and social workers have been brought in to help the students cope.

All you get at a Steiner school are excuses and "a closing of the ranks by staff members," a typical Steiner school response to problems and scandals that some of us area already familiar with.

Janni · 27/04/2008 09:16

Joe90 - certainly as the parent of a 5 year old boy who was very unhappy at the local state primary, I believed that Steiner would simply delay the pressure and provide a more nurturing, 'outdoorsy' environment for a while. To an extent, that really was the case. Both my boys enjoyed kindergarten (unlike the children of others who've written on here), BUT I was told little about the true underlying philosophy and would not have chosen Steiner had I known. Also, I believed that once they started formal teaching they would get on with it and the kids would catch up, but no, it's incredibly slow and they can be way behind their peers, making it harder and harder to know when and how to move them. You basically have to give them a crash course in literacy and numeracy before they can comfortably start elsewhere.

Livinglavidalurker (great name!) - I think this thread took on the nature it did because of theBee's approach - he would only post endless quotes. We should probably have stopped engaging with him much earlier.

I think the new thread about 'anthroposophy' will be interesting, particularly if the Steiner teacher 'raconteur' is willing to answer questions.

northernrefugee39 · 27/04/2008 09:26

Joe90, we were duped when we sent our kids to Steiner school, peddled a creative, child centred education which , once we were in , couldn't have been more different.
They say "Oh, we only take what we want from Steiner" when in fact the pedagogy is extreme and rigid.
Having said that, there are still some good things about it, if you have the right teacher, and if the anthroposophical core is set aside for human common sense.
Unfortunately, this doesn't always happen, and owing to the secretive nature of anthroposophy, no one is to know who is using which crazy belief

LivingLaVidalLurker
I tend to agree at the moment. It's all got a bit turgid.
I don't think anyone disputes the crazyness, covering up or odious beliefs about race and disability.

northernrefugee39 · 27/04/2008 09:40

PeteK
The story about the woman who bound and gagged children, and the parents reactions is extraordinary. Brainwashed certainly.
At the school our kids were, one parents evening , the parent of a boy who was big bully,and caused havoc in the class, launched into a pouring forth about how they had tried everything with him, locking him in his room, and then washing his mouth out with soap. Everyone else in the room sat there, nodding sympatheically* at this confessional.
I could feel my heart beating hard, and could see no one else was going to say anything, so I said, "I can't believe I'm sitting in a room full of people who think this is acceptable, that everyone else is condoning this, it could almost ammount to physical abuse,for adults to hold a child and do this"
I was shouted down, as much as any anthros shout down, but all turned on me, said he was just stating how far they had to go, blah blah. Totally outnumbered.
One of the elder staff members, who I now know is very anthro, was apopletic with rage, and she was usually so calm, sing song and much respected and liked. her reaction was unexpected, because she always seemed so fair and on the kids side. But that's anthroposophists for you. the children are just empty skins to incarnate.
I got up and left.
Afterwards , a couple of other parents said they agreed with me. But at the time no one said a thing.
I suppose it was the fear of being rejected by the group, all that stuff.

easeonline · 27/04/2008 10:51

"I always presumed as well that Camphill communities were nice places, and similar to the Christian Taize movement, what are they like if they consider the disabled to be demons?"

Does Camphill's staff (co-worker) turnover rate suggest much? My own experience was that it was necesssary to have this in order to get workers in, then out again before they sussed enough to ask too tricky questions.

northernrefugee39 · 27/04/2008 11:27

Yes ease/davy, I think you're spot on!
We still have contact with camphillfamilies a bit. One of my dauhte's friends comes down for sleepovers and some injection of "toys and girl stuff".
It amazes me how litle her mum "seems" to know about anthroposophy. It permeates the every day life, is just assumed that "this is how we do things" without questions.

The villagers, people with learning difficulties, always make a beeline for "outsiders". One downs woman clung to me. There always was a need for connection of some sort I thought.
They are safe, cared for, and catered for "spiritually", obviously the most important thing.
As far as "human" connections, love etc, it's down to how "spiritually" involved personally their co workers are I suppose. How much the villager is a soul who had inacarnation difficulties, which is why they are as they are, or how much they are an individual human being, with individual human needs.
Just my thoughts and observations from seeing what went on.
I saw some house parents be really scathig and derogatory, and then check themselves.
But there are others who are obviously very committed people, who work hard and appear selfless.
others who like the "idea" of the set up, community, common goal, living on the land, kibbutz-like feel, but who don't really seem to take on board everything underneath, the anthroposophical religious element.

Janni · 27/04/2008 11:57

I worked in a l'Arche community in France for a year when I was in my twenties. It was a Catholic community and we lived and worked alongside the permanent residents, all of whom had learning disabilities.

There the residents were almost put on a spiritual pedestal and shown an immense amount of respect because they were in touch with the simple values of life and had much to teach us helpers. Sounds like a very different philosophy prevails in Camphill.

DianaW · 27/04/2008 14:52

Barking:
"That's ok PeteK - my feathers were slightly ruffled.
I don't want to feel that anyone should have to justify being here or on any other thread.
I think Mumsnet is big enough for everyone"

I guess I've been feeling that I, Zooey, Margaret, Davy, Pete, (have I forgotten anyone?) - not regular users of Mumsnet - were sort of here as guests of the long-timers. We came here essentially because alerted to the discussions by people we were discussing these topics with elsewhere. I'm aware this is a community, and that Northern et al. felt it was something she wanted to share with other mothers she knew online and in real life. I didn't think an official invitation to Mumsnet was necessary, but I'm conscious we could, and perhaps have, outstayed our welceom.

If the topic is something it seems enough other mothers on Mumsnet find useful or relevant to their lives, I assumed this is why it made sense to post our information or views here. It's got to run its course eventually, I'd think.

The place is a whole lot friendlier than Mothering.com, where we are told that it's very suspicious to appear there writing about Waldorf if we don't also write in the diapering forums or the breastfeeding forums or whatever. This seems absurd to me - my child is simply much older than that and I don't care to talk about diapers (nappies, excuse me!) all day.

I guess I'd leave it to Northern, Janni, Barking etc. to sort of give a sign if it's winding down or we're starting to disrupt the usual workings of Mumsnet in some way... OTOH I've been doing this for quite some time and am not fazed by the occasional outburst like "You're all really crazy and who asked you to come here anyway?"

DianaW · 27/04/2008 14:59

Janni:

"You basically have to give them a crash course in literacy and numeracy before they can comfortably start elsewhere."

That's about right. I'm the mother of a now 15-year-old who made the transfer years ago, and is very successful at this point, but the hell we went through in the transition from Waldorf is still pretty vivid to me. It's essentially an effort to keep them in a pretty box as many years as possible, pretending the real world isn't out there.

At the time, the "gentle" approach seemed right to me, but I realized later I was essentially falling for a myth - that there there are only two ways to do things - there is the Steiner gentle, soft, nonacademic way, and then there is the horrible world of public school where they do worksheets all day long and are tortured by phonics etc. This is really not true - other schools are not the torture chambers Steiner depicts to keep parents frightened - it really is possible to introduce your child to academics both early AND gently without pressure and make it a normal course of things without "destroying ther childhood" etc. There is plenty of time for play and arts etc., too.

It now seems much kinder to me to start them early and make it playful and fun, than to withhold academics for years and suddenly expect they can function in a normal school. They can't, in many cases. And you realize too late what a disservice you've done them.

DianaW · 27/04/2008 15:02

"At the school our kids were, one parents evening , the parent of a boy who was big bully,and caused havoc in the class, launched into a pouring forth about how they had tried everything with him, locking him in his room, and then washing his mouth out with soap. *Everyone else in the room sat there, nodding sympatheically at this confessional.
I could feel my heart beating hard, and could see no one else was going to say anything, so I said, "I can't believe I'm sitting in a room full of people who think this is acceptable, that everyone else is condoning this, it could almost ammount to physical abuse,for adults to hold a child and do this"
I was shouted down, as much as any anthros shout down, but all turned on me, said he was just stating how far they had to go, blah blah. Totally outnumbered.
One of the elder staff members, who I now know is very anthro, was apopletic with rage, and she was usually so calm, sing song and much respected and liked. her reaction was unexpected, because she always seemed so fair and on the kids side. "

Northern this takes me right back there, because this would have been me in several similar situations at our school. There was a rage right under the surface in many of the people who spent the day singing and kepeing a fixed smile on their faces in the kindergartens.

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