We must end free education for the middle classes

[outofteabags]

Did anyone see Anthony Seldon's article in the Times on this? www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/article3645129.ece
I am very interested to know what people think about it especially as I happened to hear a particularly heated debate on this at a party.

Perhaps that includes nursery school?

Well if we live where we live now then dd will absolutely be going private. I would rather go without food than let her go to our local school which is filled with kids bussed in from all over the place and is crap and violent and vastly under-achieving.

If we moved to an area with grammar schools I may rethink

policywonk: "However, you don't have to look very far over the Channel to find examples of countries that have very few non-state schools, and whose educational outcomes are far better than the UK's."

My German aupair describes an educational state system in her country that is far more universal in its uptake amongst its population. The private schooling option being a minority option mainly for children who fall outside the mainstream eg special educational needs.

And the students in her school were not all from cosy middle-class backgrounds as she is. She described a significant positively criminal element at secondary, but she seemed to be far more accepting of them in her school than any british middle-class parent (me included) would ever be.

Perhaps other German mnetters could shed light on whether her observations gell with yours.

Germany has a tripartite system - so not exactly equal.

What a ridiculous article. How would you define middle class? We work - are we working class? We get paid well but are not rich, are we middle class? How would you decide, would you look at the size of our house, our bank balance or our gross salary? Would you take into account the hours that are worked to achieve a particular salary?

Dh and I have a fairly high gross income. We work very hard and the state receives a large chunk of the fruits of our labour. I have no problems with this as I fully endorse the concept of a cradle to grave welfare state. However our disposable income is not huge once travel and mortgage etc have been paid and we live a far from extravagant life style.

If you are going to means test state eduction then perhaps consideration should also be given to a "moral value" test (as there was originally for state pension). By way of eg SIL has never worked a day in her life (at 40), has 5 children, a council house, new everything and goes abroad every year (I can't afford to do this and tv etc are all 10+ years old). Don't get me wrong, I don't want her life or begrudge what she has or think that this describes all or even the majority of people on benefits. However, I don't see why someone should point a finger at me and say I am undeserving because of my gross salary but in some way that SIL is. Clearly no one would ever do this so the whole notion is absurd.

My considered opinion is that Mr Seldon is talking cock.

yes, the only thing that worries me about sending dd1 to the local state comp are the other children

although some of the local private school kids are even more unpleasant in a different way

Germany has a tripartite system which is under huge criticism atm. Essentially, middle-class kids go to the grammar school, non-mc kids from supportive families go to the Secondary Modern type schools, so that all the kids whose parents don't give a toss or are too uneducated or foreign or under stress to play the system are concentrated in the Hauptschule where they are unlikely to come out with any kind of qualification that's worth the paper it's written on.

Not a system that any other country should be queueing up to emulate, particularly since the Germans themselves are struggling to find a better solution.

I think, if this system was to be introduced in my own local area, parents would be demanding to be paid to send their children to the local secondaries, whatever their class/income.

thanks frogs. It did strike me from German aupair's description that the state schooling system was not particularly inclusive nor did it cater well for diversity.

So if my local comp was really bad - poor results, violent pupils, no discipline etc I would be doing the right thing by sending my DCs there because their influence as children who are keen to learn, are from a family that values education and will do support them in anyway they can etc etc will bring change to those children who are badly behaved etc. Firstly I don't believe for one second that this is the case and I think anyone who says this clearly thinks that they are their child are better than the others and should be ashamed. Secondly frankly my children are not social experiments, my children don't go to school to help other children whos parents can't be arsed to be better they go to school to learn, to make friends/build relationships and enjoy themselves.

I maintain the reason that there are very good schools in this country is because the parents of the children who attend are spending a huge amount of time and resource educating them. Perhaps a mumsnetter can tell us about a school they have read about that has been turned around by having 'middle class' children shipped in.

I wonder what the rise in privately educated French children is due to. Private schools used to be primarily catholic ones and did not have as good a reputation as the state ones.

I do think western society as a whole puts a great deal of value of what is paid for and as a greater proportion of the population has become much richer with fewer children, people consider education one of the most important things to pay for.

Why are the middle classes being clobbered again? Surely the issue is that there should be more state schools offering a decent education, then there wouldn't be such a scramble for whoever (lower, middle, upper, working, not working, etc) to get their kids a free school place, which everyone is entitled to...
The anger should be directed at the government who is, for whatever reason, not providing across the board decent education at primary and especially secondary level, plus charging for further education, which was previously free.
Rant over. For now.

It's not all about providing a good education, though. It's also about parents only wanting their children to associate with people just like them.

I don't get how a voucher system would be any different from what we already have. Could someone who believes in it please explain how it would advantage the disadvantaged?

pointydog - private schools in France are still primarily religious (not exclusively Catholic) schools, although there are other types of private schools within the realm of the Ministry for Education (to be a "French" school, a school must be under contract with the Ministry of Education and fulfil stringent criteria re curriculum, timetable, pupil:teacher ratio etc etc).

The move to private schools in Paris and Ile-de-France is about dissatisfaction with exam results but also behavioural issues and social mix... same problems as in the UK.

One very big difference, however, is class size. Class sizes tend to be bigger in private schools at the moment because their popularity has grown faster than their facilities can (this is the same in New York, btw). State schools have much smaller class sizes because their rapid decline in favour has not been matched by closure of facilities.

dont really understand middle class bashing

surely we all encourage our children to be middle class, if by middle class you mean educated and with an enjoyable, fairly well paid job

then we all hate and punish the middle classes

extraordinary

UD, I'd like someone to explain that too. All it would do as far as I can tell is make the situation worse because the voucher would cover the schools which are not really performing as they should and parents who could afford it would pay the top up charge. I suspect that most people who are in favour are those who already send their children to fee paying schools and want a 'discount voucher'.

I genuinely want someone to explain it though.

Not sure that anyone can really explain something which doesn't exist though.

French private schools aren't off limits to the poorer population either, because nearly all of them are sous contrat, ie state subsidised. Our nearest private secondary school charges less than 100 euros a month, lunches included.

Policywonk,
One can't compare with Europe as the system in most countries there is what it used to be in the UK before the abolition of grammar schools.

You've seen the description above on Germany. In France, it is hugely driven by the catchment area as it is here, but the school's headmaster can pretty easily decided who goes there. So if you are a good family (both parents university lectureres, eg.), but you don't quite live in the catchment area, you just make an appointment, have a chat and you are in, because the school wants you there, but they will find a way not to admit a Moroccan from poor background. They even look at postcode of where you were BORN so bad luck if your birth certificate has the wrong arrondisement in it. Also, there is streaming further up, almost all do the Bac at private schools, and that's the road to university.

As far as the Netherlands goes, children go to different schools from the age of 11, after an 11+ test (it's much easire though, as it doesn't look at IQ at all, only at what's been learnt) so after that all the bright/studious kids go to grammar school and study latin, greek and the other bells and whistles, and the rest to secondary modern.

So you are not comparing apples with apples.

And by the way, in all the European countries where you have a private alternative, it is WAY WAY cheaper than here. ANY professional would easily be able to afford to send their kids there

"So, mixing under-achieveing children from disrupted or unsupportive backgrounds with children from educationally-motivated homes tends to have a positive affect on the outcomes of the most disadvantaged children."

policywonk - in Paris and the suburbs, the state collèges (junior high school) are not academically selective and streaming is officially illegal. Children go to their local collège unless they are sent to a private school

All collèges tacitly stream, however - all educated parents know this (and play the system) and all teachers admit it in private. Why? Because the educational outcomes of the children from advantaged homes are so badly affected by being in mixed classes with children from disadvantaged homes/behavioural and learning difficulties that no educated parents would actually send their children to state collège if there were no streaming.

castille - indeed, and Catholic schools here in Paris often make no charge at all to the poorest families (and ask for extra voluntary contributions from well-off families to subsidise the system).