We must end free education for the middle classes

[outofteabags]

Did anyone see Anthony Seldon's article in the Times on this? www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/article3645129.ece
I am very interested to know what people think about it especially as I happened to hear a particularly heated debate on this at a party.

How does private schooling affect the quality of state education? I'm curious.

Ah anna, in this case it's an old chestnut because it's true.

Socialism (the common ownership of the means of production) hasn't been instituted anywhere properly, and isn't terribly relevant to the education debate anyway. However, you don't have to look very far over the Channel to find examples of countries that have very few non-state schools, and whose educational outcomes are far better than the UK's.

Which countries are you thinking of, policywonk?

Maybe those countries have fewer thug children though, and dodgy family situations.

ScienceTeacher - "those countries" are a figment of policywonk's imagination - or, rather, they used to exist and pw is referring to the past. Almost everywhere in Europe there is a drive to private (or rather alternatives to state) education.

Christ what a terrible idea! Let's shut the NHS to everyone earning over £30,000 too, because clearly with a bit of an effort, they could afford to go private. Surely it's up to everyone individually to decide what they want to spend their money on?!? I'm going to stop there because I fear I am too angry to be coherent . . .

I suspect you are right, Anna. I have friends' children in various British/International schools in Europe, and the vast majority of children in those schools are locals. Parents do value a private education, even if it is a relatively new thing where they live.

Anyway, assuming that that the main push to ban private schools (apart from left-wing principles) would be to put 'top' children into the state system. That will however do nothing to improve state schools, because the problems are all at the 'bottom' (I use these terms to describe in-school behaviour rather than intelligence or achievement).

Don't bother being angry, Bramshott. The article is very silly. Why would anyone vote for a political party that taxed the so-called well-off middle classes and then prevented those middle-classes accessing services like education or health? People just wouldn't stand for the less well off (who pay fewer taxes) getting those things for free out of taxed income to which they had contributed more. There comes a point when people stop contributing to the public purse for the common good because they get insufficient returns for their money...

And Bramshott, it kind of completely ignores how much we put into the economy via taxation (and in many cases, job creation) and get a piddly bit of child benefit as recognition for our children.

Anna - isn't it true of France? A lower proportion of private schools than the UK, and better educational outcomes?

You can't just look at a state/private ratio though, Policy.

The French education system is completely different to ours, and French families are not the same either.

Maybe there would be an argument if you could adopt all the variables - but you can't.

Children arrive in school every day with baggage from outside. That is where the issue lies.

ScienceTeacher - yes.

My daughter is in a bilingual school here in Paris, my sister's children are at the International School of Amsterdam and previously the International School of Madrid. There are always more local parents wanting to send their children to such schools than the schools wish to have as a proportion of their intake.

34% of children in Paris go to private school ie have opted out of the state system.

34% - wow!

School-children (and their outcomes in terms of results) are affected greatly by their peer groups. So, mixing under-achieveing children from disrupted or unsupportive backgrounds with children from educationally-motivated homes tends to have a positive affect on the outcomes of the most disadvantaged children.

It might not always be advantageous to the most advantaged children, but then those children (axiomatically) already have many other advantages and are unlikely to sink without a trace.

I accept that there are some children whose upbringings have been so disfunctional that they are just not able to operate in an ordinary school environment, and more needs to be done to either help them to settle at ordinary schools, or to remove them to specialised schools - but of course this will involve a lot of extra resources.

34%, but in Paris though. What is the picture outside of Paris?

What's the figure across France though, Anna? (I don't know the answer so it might torpedo my argument.)

Why not ban private schools altogether and use the properties and facilities for free state education across the board? [helpful]

Given the urban:rural population densities in France, it's going to have a huge influence on national figures.

You are always going to get a far higher proportion in financial centres though

I know loads of bankers etc who move their kids around International schools with their jobs - if you move that regularly it is the only way of getting some continuity in education. It is not necessarily that they don't want to use the state facility but more that it is just not feasible with that lifestyle

How would that improve things, Enid?

Why do you assume that private schools have better facilities anyway? They do not all have huge endowments, you know.

That is rather my position Enid

Policy, you are right that children are greatly influenced by their peers and this is the thing which terrifies middle class parents, resulting in them shelling out more money to be sure their children go to a school with similar children.

Does Professor Seldon have children/grandchildren, and if so where do they go to school?

Yes quite, chopchop. I try not to sneer about that motivation - as secondary school for DS1 draws closer I find myself thinking like that sometimes (our local school is pretty rough). I do understand the strong wish to do the best for your own child.

"In France, some 25 per cent of students attend a privately run institution; in the UK, that figure is 30 per cent, in Belgium 50 per cent and in the Netherlands as many as 70 per cent"

(germany is 6%)

from the goethe institut

which is odd as I thought the uk was a lot lower