If labour win the election can they introduce VAT immediately?

[londonparent321]

(For school fees) Or do they need to go through the courts which could take years /never happen?

Thanks @prh47bridge

On your second point… because lots of parents are motivated to help their kids etc… why do a few more motivated parents make the magic difference that you alluded to in your “make the school better” post

It's unlikely 100 kids would all be in the same year. If there is a big bulge it would be likely in year 7. And the numbers on the roll would be the numbers on the roll unless provision was made for a temporary extension (as schools have done in previous bulge years). The kids would be dispersed according to the admittance rules everyone else follows.

And I suspect you know that your average school would struggle to get the active engagement of thousands of parents so 100-200 invested parents could make a pretty big change.

Part of that education is essential. It’s a legal requirement to educate your child. There would be an argument to add VAT on to elements above the level of basic education, if the state funded the basic element.

There are an awful lot of "borderline" parents at some private schools and most of those work full time to afford the fees.

Personally, if it becomes unaffordable and I move my daughters back to the state sector then I will reduce my hours - why should I continue to work so hard and pay so much tax - I only do it to pay the fees but all of my mum friends who have children at state school work part time so I will probably reduce my hours too as no reason to slog my guts out.

We talk about this helping social mobility but I am first generation university and just worked hard to become "borderline"....it's certainly not the generational wealth brigade who are going to be impacted here...

Our school has offered a multi year pre payment scheme this week.

With the caveat that parents should take their own financial advice and that the scheme is aligned to current tax legislation which may be subject to change.

I agree, it should be that privately educated kids get a tax rebate equal to the amount the state spends on their education.

VAT isn't a luxury tax.

It's the EU's general sales tax that UK adopted on entry to the EEC, and at the same time had had to abolish all other sales taxes (including the old luxury tax).

Education in all schools, preschools and universities is currently exempt from sales tax. UK, post Brexit, will be able to apply a sales tax (and doesn't need new legislation to vary change VAT).

I think they'll do it ASAP, otherwise it will look as if they can't deliver and this one ought to be straightforward.

Personally, I think the idea of taxing education is wrong (and potentially the thin end of a wedge). But it seems to be popular with the electorate, so yes it'll happen and it'll happen early.

The demographic changes will help ease the impact of the exodus from the private sector. But it won't fall evenly, and there will be areas that will really struggle to meet demand. There are some parts of the country where I really wouldn't want to have a school aged DC until this has all worked through

As only 7% of children go to private schools, and only a small minority of those are likely to be priced out and have to enter the state system, why do you think class numbers in state schools will increase by 33%?

All the NHS staff, teachers, cleaners, shop workers etc work really hard. How hard you work is not reflected in how much you are paid.

Sadly we’re more the envy end of politics than sensible and beneficial

20% of 6th formers are privately educated.

Is that reflected in the absolute numbers though or is it more that a much larger % of state school students have moved to apprenticeships etc. The absolute numbers matter more than the %s when you're talking about state sixth forms ability to absorb

So what? @Meadowfinch claimed that the policy would result in state school class sizes increasing to 40. I would like to see some evidence for this.

No.....but it is reflected in how many hours I work!

I am so pleased my kids are out the other side. Locally there are three large private schools. Most of the parents are middle class locals. If those three closed (not likely but let's be silly) 3,500 children, primary and secondary, would need to go into the oversubscribed state schools. There are a couple of fab ones, where the locals pay £1m to get in catchment.

My kids would be allocated a frankly awful, underperforming school, in a deprived community our side of town, as we live rurally. I would home school.

It's got nothing to do with charitable status or otherwise. All independent schools have to be registered with the DfE so it can just pass details straight to HMRC.

It's going to be a total mess.

Schools will divide the day up into VATable and nonVATable chunks.

So you will pay on the basic education but not on lunch, sports, after and before school clubs and boarding.

Labour are going to fall flat on their faces with this one.

Then you will have the specialist schools like music and ballet which are private and paid for mainly by the government that won't have VAT.

And the SEN schools that won't have VAT.

And then there are the boarders who are also paid for by the government because parents are Crown Servants or Armed Forces...

The only people who will benefit are the lawyers.

And there's people out there who are excited and 'can't wait' to have this removed from your daughter, yet have the audacity to think they are the better people!

I'm picturing them as the innkeeper and his wife from Les Mis!

I am not sure it's quite that straightforward and I don't think Labour have yet given the fine detail of what they intend to do. Presumably the most straightforward thing to do would be to amend the VAT notice to remove independent schools from the 'eligible body' list. The issue is that charities providing education are also included in this list so if they were to simply remove independent schools that would mean that those indepdent schools that are also charities would have exemption on the second basis. Presumably they will have to amend that defintion too but that is, I assume, where the PPs question came from.

There are other questions too e.g. how special schools will be treated and children with an EHCP etc. I hope that they take time to craft this carefully as the rules are complex and there's currently a lot of uncertainty about the details.

I literally cannot tell what you want from this post. Is it to point out you will have less discretionary spending and that will be a shame for the nation? That you will cut your charitable donations before your holidays?

I don’t think this is the look you think it is.

@OhCrumbsWhereNow dividing the school day into VATable and non-VATable chunks is not going to work. HMRC are not stupid. Regarding forces boarders etc - so what? The government pays VAT on all other services that it contracts out - in my industry we have plenty of pubsec contracts and they get billed VAT just like any other customer. SEN schools and specialist private schools that are funded under the MDS scheme, such as Chetham's, could be exempted if the government so wish.

The idea that this will be too complex to implement is frankly wishful thinking. HMRC are used to taxing far more complex industries and corporate structures, and dealing with the ingenious schemes that companies come up with to avoid paying. The average school bursar isn't going to be doing anything they haven't seen a thousand times already.

But the decision as to what categories attract VAT in the first place will belong to the government, not the courts.

actually one of the things about VAT law is that it has been largely developed through the courts much more so than other taxation legislation. The courts will without doubt play a part but that won’t hold up implementation .

I strongly suspect that you are wrong here.

It's exactly what happens in countries like Finland where you can't charge for education - but you have private schools.

You just have lots of smaller companies that are contracted to provide St Custard's Rugby, St Custard's Drama, St Custard's Catering.

Will be very interesting to watch what happens.

@MrsApplepants ,

It is an interesting concept that the elite can do more good with charitable contributions than the state can with the same money.

The problem is that is an excuse for avoiding as much tax as possible as long as you donate philanthropically. Is that what you actually want?

And again, we live in a democracy so, in theory at least, we, as the demos, choose where our collective expenditure goes. The elite tend to donate to their favoured causes, which can just follow trends and leave many important needs unmet.

So, yes, if your solution to being made to cough up £4k in tax is just to reduce your philanthropy by the same amount, it is still probably better (of course, you could economise elsewhere or meet the small increase from savings).

Have they said they also want to catch afterschool clubs/breakfast clubs etc if provided by independent schools? These are usually treated as welfare services for VAT. If they remained as such it'd be completely within the rules to have VAT and non-VAT able parts of the day and not a tax dodge. Obviously if they started saying the teaching of GCSE maths was an after school club it wouldn't work but after school provision for prep schools presumably would be. I haven't looked at the detail of what they are proposing on this so perhaps they have made it clear.