If labour win the election can they introduce VAT immediately?

[londonparent321]

(For school fees) Or do they need to go through the courts which could take years /never happen?

Definitely, they think Eton etc. They have no concept of the reality of most privste schools being populated by the children of dentists, gps, civil servants etc. During lock down, our school was almost populated as normal when running for keyworkers, because so many are not some crazy rich aristocrats. They are families comprising two working parents who are both well qualified yes, but earning fortunes, no.

Well, for starters, this will not actually hurt the rich at all. Just people in the middle. It will create a wider gulf in education because elite schools will still prosper, they will be unaffected. It is the wee non-profit making school that will be driven out of business. The type of school that is the most accessible.

I grew up on a council house, so did dp. Our children go to a small independent school. We did that. But very few will from now on if this goes ahead, it just will lift private education out of the grasp of ordinary families. It will be the sole privilege of those with wealth as opposed to people doing quite well.

Plus, all the stuff about raising money is just the same as that stupid brexit bus. But people are stupid is the sad realisation I have come to. Just too willing to believe a soundbite, despite evidence to the contrary.

Precisely @Snugglemonkey I sometimes think some of those as seen on this thread, are actually the worst type of snobs, they're happy with the rich elite still being able to attend private school, they just dont want anyone 'aspirational' accessing it.

“Precisely @Snugglemonkey I sometimes think some of those as seen on this thread, are actually the worst type of snobs, they're happy with the rich elite still being able to attend private school, they just dont want anyone 'aspirational' accessing it.”

I think you have hit the nail on the head there. They (white middle class leftie types) do not want you ex council, builder, aspirational immigrant etc taking the university places of their DC, that they believe they are entitled to.

So I agree it is a small minded, racist, bigoted policy and reflects the worst of the backward nature that is still found in parts of the Labour Party. Sadly. The worst of the left, like Brexit was the worst of the Conservative Party.

We are a modern multicultural liberal democracy (and I hate to quote Sunak there) but that is our best feature and any attack on people’s choices should be frowned upon. What we need is more education, more creativity, more aspiration, in whatever shape or form. I will take it. Private, church, grammar, pushy academy, liberal academy, local authority school etc etc - our education system is multifaceted anyway. What we need to look at is those communities that are being failed and why that may be. It is also completely ridiculous to make schools responsible for everything in society in the first place. Parenting/Poverty/Health etc - schools cannot be made responsible for all of it.

Those who cannot afford private schools but have a house full of books need not fear anyway. So not sure why people like @Goldenbear even cares. Maybe they feel that some people are being duped by private schools. If that is the case, I don’t think those people need the nanny state to tell them what choices they should make. Most people rich enough for private school are educated enough to make that choice.

Wow, slander and insults about people that don't agree with you, that's really progressive.

We live in a democracy where freedom of expression is allowed. Why make the political, personal, it helps no one. I take your points, I didn't even vote Labour last time or the election before, I voted for the Green party not that I have to justify this.

@Araminta1003

‘We are a modern multicultural liberal democracy (and I hate to quote Sunak there) but that is our best feature and any attack on people’s choices should be frowned upon.’

Possibly the most hilarious half a paragraph I have read on here in a long time!

So the fact that the vast majority is priced out of private schools because they have made the decision to prioritise country-club like facilities over providing a great academic education at a reasonable price is great, not an attack on anyone’s choices, and the fact that 90% of parents will hardly notice the VAT doesn’t seem to make an impression on you.

But, my god, the right of those few who will be affected by an extra 10% on fees really vexes you! Have you not noticed the pupils already being forced to leave as fees go up above inflation year after year. Or do those parents not deserve the choice?!

@Newbutoldfather - so you also just want to punish private schools? Would you feel the same way if your pension was not ring fenced? Because that is what you are wishing on others who are in a position you may have been in just a few years ago?

We live in a democracy where freedom of expression is allowed. Why make the political, personal, it helps no one. I take your points, I didn't even vote Labour last time or the election before, I voted for the Green party not that I have to justify this.

Believing in freedom of expression and voting for the Green Party are contradictory positions.

decision to prioritise country-club like facilities

showing they have no idea what the vast majority of private schools are like.

But, my god, the right of those few who will be affected by an extra 10% on fees

VAT is 20%

@Araminta1003 ,

Charging VAT isn’t punishment, it is just tax like all other taxes. Are you being ‘punished’ by paying income tax?

@SaffronSpice ,

Of the 20%, they can claim 5% back. They will easily find savings of another 5%, hence my estimate of a 10% rise.

@SaffronSpice ,

‘showing they have no idea what the vast majority of private schools are like.’

Ok, if I have no idea, answer me one simple question. Why have private school fees been going up at twice cpi or more for the last 30 years or so? (Hint: It sure ain’t the teachers’ salaries).

Schools are service providers, they make very few VAT purchases they can claim back. How do you think most schools can ‘easily find savings of 5%’? Most are already operating hand to mouth with a steady stream closing each year due to inability meet costs; on average 19 prep schools per year plus more at secondary level.

You seem unable to see beyond a few elite private schools.

Certainly the comment about private schools having facilities like country clubs seems to reinforce the inaccurate but widely held perception that all private schools resemble Eton.

@SaffronSpice ,

‘Most are already operating hand to mouth with a steady stream closing each year due to inability meet costs; on average 19 prep schools per year plus more at secondary level.’

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/independent-schools-council-north-west-wales-south-west-london-b2096347.html

Record number of pupils attended private schools in 2022, so that doesn’t really confirm your picture of a struggling sector. Of course schools close, but others also open, which you have conveniently omitted. And there is a consolidation in the sector, as SLT and marketing costs continue to grow, and work much better in a school with 500+ pupils.

As to where savings can be found: SLT and marketing, to name two areas. Class sizes aren’t so small in private schools (at least not senior) to account for the fact they cost at least twice as much per pupils as state schools .

@SaffronSpice ,

‘Schools are service providers, they make very few VAT purchases they can claim back. How do you think most schools can ‘easily find savings of 5%’?’

https://www.schoolguide.co.uk/blog/vat-on-school-fees-everything-parents-need-to-know

• ‘The proposal is to levy VAT at the standard rate of 20% onto school fees. However schools will be able to recover VAT on other expenditure so the effective rate of increase in costs for schools is likely to be closer to 15%. Some elements of the school fees, such as welfare services and transport services might also be exempt from VAT, further reducing the overall VAT cost.

• Some schools have significant cash reserves or other assets that could be used to avoid passing the full cost onto parents. However, this will not be the case for a lot of schools. ‘

I stand by my estimate of a 10% rise across the sector.

If you have any sources to refute this rather than just random assertions, feel free to let me know.

It's such a storm in a teacup - given the rate at which fees have risen in recent years a) any sensible parent of children in private school is well prepared for rises and b) most private schools can find some efficiencies to save a few bob and not pass on the whole 20%.

There's certainly no need for the (frankly hilarious) rhetoric.

• Some schools have significant cash reserves or other assets that could be used to avoid passing the full cost onto parents. However, this will not be the case for a lot of schools. ‘

Still stuck on Eton? And you understand the few school who do have such assets, using them in this way means those assets get spent and cannot be used to offset VAT again in future?

school fees overall have likely seen an average real terms increase of between two thirds (66 per cent) and three quarters (77 per cent) since 2000.

https://www.civitas.org.uk/2023/02/24/private-schooling-in-britain-a-snapshot/

Many many more parents are priced out of private school by private school fees rises than the impact the VAT policy will make.

As a school governor at a very small independent school I've been closely involved in the calculations - it's going to be a 16 or 17% rise for us. And as for reserves - really? We have around 5 months reserves - and then the school closes.

Well yes, that is obvious but the rise in VAT will be the straw that breaks the camels back for many.

I see the IFS make the ludicrous assumption that parents who take their children out of private school due to VAT will generate as much VAT by spending the money on VAT-payable products instead. Where the money from ex-private school (or no longer potential private school) parents is most likely to go is housing - more expensive houses in good state school catchments pushing those prices up further. Plus commuting costs. And in areas with just failing schools, the lack of affordable alternatives will mean those with the jobs that would have paid for the private school just won’t move to the area (eg GPs, successful businessmen)

And the on average 8% increase last year in fees was probably the straw that broke the camel's back for others but I didn't see any rhetoric on how much damage that did to liberal democracy

Remembering, of course, VAT will come on top of any rises due to other inflationary pressures.