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londonparent321 · 2024-02-18T19:45:44+00:00

(For school fees) Or do they need to go through the courts which could take years /never happen?

strawberrybubblegum · 27/02/2024 12:33

@Goldenbear - a race to the bottom makes the UK poorer, which makes things worse for everyone.

Taxing education harms a country's future. That's why the EU doesn't allow it.

strawberrybubblegum · 27/02/2024 13:07

strawberrybubblegum · 27/02/2024 11:51

Thanks, @Labraradabrador - that's exactly what I'm trying to say.

@TwistyTreeRoots - of course not everyone can afford all these things. That's what I and other posters keep trying to tell you:

It's. Not. The. School.

Our neighbours do pay for all these things for their 2 state-educated children. There's happily not very much difference between DD's life chances and theirs. Not identical of course because they're different children. DD is an only - which is why we can afford private, which gives her more of all those opportunities to learn - but they have the lifelong benefit of a sibling. And they have different strengths and weaknesses. Our families have different strengths and weaknesses (they're sporty and take their kids to loads of sports, I have family abroad and can teach DD a different language)

But there's no mechanism which will favour DD over our neighbours. They will all go out into the world and do the best they can with their own strengths and weaknesses: which are partly in-built and partly learned along the way.

So it makes no sense to punish people for choosing a private school. And it is punitive: it's ideological and will cause more problems than benefit. And that pisses me off.

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What I thought didn't need saying, but perhaps I do need to be explicit so that pp don't get the wrong end of the stick again :

Both DD and our state-educated neighbours' kids have very different life chances to a child who has grown up with insecure accomodation, never sure whether they'll have to move tomorrow, 3 people to a small room and no space to do homework.

Very different life chances to a child whose single mother is working 2 jobs to keep a roof over their heads, and has no time to do homework with her kid and help with the maths concept he's struggling with, no books in the house, and no-one realises he has dyslexia.

Very different life chances to the cripplingly shy child who has no wider family living close by, didn't ever want to do activities after school, and ends up spending hours a day on computer games.

Nothing. To. Do. With. The. School.

strawberrybubblegum · 27/02/2024 13:07

strawberrybubblegum · 27/02/2024 11:51

Thanks, @Labraradabrador - that's exactly what I'm trying to say.

@TwistyTreeRoots - of course not everyone can afford all these things. That's what I and other posters keep trying to tell you:

It's. Not. The. School.

Our neighbours do pay for all these things for their 2 state-educated children. There's happily not very much difference between DD's life chances and theirs. Not identical of course because they're different children. DD is an only - which is why we can afford private, which gives her more of all those opportunities to learn - but they have the lifelong benefit of a sibling. And they have different strengths and weaknesses. Our families have different strengths and weaknesses (they're sporty and take their kids to loads of sports, I have family abroad and can teach DD a different language)

But there's no mechanism which will favour DD over our neighbours. They will all go out into the world and do the best they can with their own strengths and weaknesses: which are partly in-built and partly learned along the way.

So it makes no sense to punish people for choosing a private school. And it is punitive: it's ideological and will cause more problems than benefit. And that pisses me off.

Edited

Show quote history

What I thought didn't need saying, but perhaps I do need to be explicit so that pp don't get the wrong end of the stick again :

Both DD and our state-educated neighbours' kids have very different life chances to a child who has grown up with insecure accomodation, never sure whether they'll have to move tomorrow, 3 people to a small room and no space to do homework.

Very different life chances to a child whose single mother is working 2 jobs to keep a roof over their heads, and has no time to do homework with her kid and help with the maths concept he's struggling with, no books in the house, and no-one realises he has dyslexia.

Very different life chances to the cripplingly shy child who has no wider family living close by, didn't ever want to do activities after school, and ends up spending hours a day on computer games.

Nothing. To. Do. With. The. School.

TwistyTreeRoots · 27/02/2024 13:11

Labraradabrador · 27/02/2024 11:13

I will say, though, that in my area there is a mile long waiting list for stagecoach, most private music teachers are fully booked, and expensive children’s art workshops get booked within hours of announcement. Despite living in an area that isn’t particularly affluent, many state school parents (and it is 95% state school) seem to find a way to pay for this privilege.

Anecdata to suit your narrative

TwistyTreeRoots · 27/02/2024 13:16

strawberrybubblegum · 27/02/2024 13:07

What I thought didn't need saying, but perhaps I do need to be explicit so that pp don't get the wrong end of the stick again :

Both DD and our state-educated neighbours' kids have very different life chances to a child who has grown up with insecure accomodation, never sure whether they'll have to move tomorrow, 3 people to a small room and no space to do homework.

Very different life chances to a child whose single mother is working 2 jobs to keep a roof over their heads, and has no time to do homework with her kid and help with the maths concept he's struggling with, no books in the house, and no-one realises he has dyslexia.

Very different life chances to the cripplingly shy child who has no wider family living close by, didn't ever want to do activities after school, and ends up spending hours a day on computer games.

Nothing. To. Do. With. The. School.

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That is explicitly what you said - that state school children could "happily" have all those extra curricular. Now you are backtracking. Maybe concentrate on getting your thinking straight rather than all your bold words and emojis.

TwistyTreeRoots · 27/02/2024 13:19

bogoffeternal · 27/02/2024 10:21

@TwistyTreeRoots : "I would actually disagree and say that the provision by many private schools is woeful, although that myth is very well peddled by their marketing contingent and those parents must believe they are buying a superior education or they wouldn't do it."

Also* @TwistyTreeRoots : "for the most part (SEN and bullying aside!) they are making a calculated judgement that they are buying advantage, which of course they are."*

How is this woeful education also an unfair advantage?

There is disparity within the sector. That has already been covered earlier in the thread.

strawberrybubblegum · 27/02/2024 13:23

That is explicitly what you said - that state school children could "happily" have all those extra curricular.

Can you show where I said that? Try reading it again. Read @Labraradabrador 's explanation of what I said.

strawberrybubblegum · 27/02/2024 13:25

Oh, and the word "happily" in that context means that I'm happy they can. Not that they go to those classes skipping.

hth.

TwistyTreeRoots · 27/02/2024 13:26

strawberrybubblegum · 27/02/2024 13:25

Oh, and the word "happily" in that context means that I'm happy they can. Not that they go to those classes skipping.

hth.

Except they can't. It adds to the irony of what you said.

TizerorFizz · 27/02/2024 13:27

It’s ludicrous to say schools don’t make a difference. We all know quality teaching makes a difference. However a poor child should be able to access this and greatly improve life changes. As long as they aim high in uni and for work.

We don’t need as many degrees as we award. 20% don’t do jobs needing a degree. What we need is more choice post 16-18 that 20%.

Labraradabrador · 27/02/2024 13:37

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PlantingTreesAgain · 27/02/2024 13:38

Goldenbear · 27/02/2024 11:17

Sadly, it is the case that a majority of state school parents cannot afford any extra curricular clubs/lessons as the money is going on huge bills! We are a typical middle-class family with high joint income, my DH is an Architect and I work in Privacy/info sec, on paper you would think that these things are affordable but we are questioning the affordability of my daughter's piano lessons so there is no way that the majority of state school DC are receiving tutoring, drama club lessons etc. Unless the parents have no mortgage or the Grandparents are paying. Most holidays up until last year (when DH got a bonus) were paid for by our parents. We are lucky to have those opportunities but it is all based on luck now, asset wealth, not how hard you work. The next daunting cost is Uni maintenance fees as we don't qualify for anything and are means tested, so basically £63000 plus is no different to an income of £1 million!

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Apologies if I’m reading this wrong @Goldenbear and just ignore this post if I am but
re Uni costs

All Students get a loan for all fees and the basic maintenance cost. This is not means tested.
Info on Your salaries is only needed to claim the additional maintenance cost.

So your dc, like every student, will be able to get the basic support.

( Im not going into how the basic maintenance doesn’t even come near to paying for rent and you’ll need the full amount and then some to pay rent and eat but that’s another thread )

OOBetty · 27/02/2024 13:39

strawberrybubblegum · 27/02/2024 12:33

@Goldenbear - a race to the bottom makes the UK poorer, which makes things worse for everyone.

Taxing education harms a country's future. That's why the EU doesn't allow it.

Edited

Well said👏👏

TwistyTreeRoots · 27/02/2024 13:46

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TwistyTreeRoots · 27/02/2024 13:49

PlantingTreesAgain · 27/02/2024 13:38

Apologies if I’m reading this wrong @Goldenbear and just ignore this post if I am but
re Uni costs

All Students get a loan for all fees and the basic maintenance cost. This is not means tested.
Info on Your salaries is only needed to claim the additional maintenance cost.

So your dc, like every student, will be able to get the basic support.

( Im not going into how the basic maintenance doesn’t even come near to paying for rent and you’ll need the full amount and then some to pay rent and eat but that’s another thread )

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Yes, the basic maintenance loan is insufficient to cover living costs. As you say, another thread but it barely covers accommodation in places like Exeter and Bristol and parents have to top up quite significantly. Some universities like Oxford and Cambridge are cheaper for accommodation. It is the squeezed middle where it really hurts but the Government keeps this quiet and some parents don't even know about this funding requirement until University is upon them. Also, not all students can work due to the demands and placements of their courses.

Morph22010 · 27/02/2024 13:53

Hercisback · 18/02/2024 22:14

People keep saying this but, assuming it is meant to be those already in secondary, they won’t just get a state school place

The LA has to educate them somehow. You'll likely end up with schools being forced to take extra students, disproportionately affecting different areas.

The la has to offer a school but it won’t necessarily be the one the parents want, it will be the school with a place which could be miles away and terrible. If the parents turn this down the la have complied with their duty

Minymile · 27/02/2024 13:54

TizerorFizz · 27/02/2024 13:27

It’s ludicrous to say schools don’t make a difference. We all know quality teaching makes a difference. However a poor child should be able to access this and greatly improve life changes. As long as they aim high in uni and for work.

We don’t need as many degrees as we award. 20% don’t do jobs needing a degree. What we need is more choice post 16-18 that 20%.

Absolutely agree ‘ a poor child should be able to access a good education’

Which is why countries with a really good state education dont have so many private schools and their attitude to private education is very different from the majority of the UK population.

The solution, therefore, is a much better state education.
Attack the core problem rather than tinkering about at the edges of others.

Labraradabrador · 27/02/2024 14:04

@TwistyTreeRoots you might want to read back through your own posts (those that haven’t been blocked) and see how well you have met the standard of civility.

apologies for taking the time to try and respond to your posts and make sense of the jumble of arguments you have thrown out. Clearly a waste of my time.

PlantingTreesAgain · 27/02/2024 14:05

TwistyTreeRoots · 27/02/2024 13:49

Yes, the basic maintenance loan is insufficient to cover living costs. As you say, another thread but it barely covers accommodation in places like Exeter and Bristol and parents have to top up quite significantly. Some universities like Oxford and Cambridge are cheaper for accommodation. It is the squeezed middle where it really hurts but the Government keeps this quiet and some parents don't even know about this funding requirement until University is upon them. Also, not all students can work due to the demands and placements of their courses.

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Yes I have one at Exeter. His halls are approx £7000/yr and next year he’s found a house with mates which will leave him with £500 after rent to live on after we pay for his additional maintenance

He has a job which helps but it’s proving an issue with uni work load.

His twin is at Uni in London….I can’t even bring myself to write down his costs.

PlantingTreesAgain · 27/02/2024 14:09

PlantingTreesAgain · 27/02/2024 14:05

Yes I have one at Exeter. His halls are approx £7000/yr and next year he’s found a house with mates which will leave him with £500 after rent to live on after we pay for his additional maintenance

He has a job which helps but it’s proving an issue with uni work load.

His twin is at Uni in London….I can’t even bring myself to write down his costs.

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Apologies to all.
Didnt mean to derail the thread there

OOBetty · 27/02/2024 14:14

strawberrybubblegum · 27/02/2024 09:06

@ZebraF - do your children have an EHCP? If not, then prioritise getting one now and then if the legislation does exclude kids with an EHCP as pp have suggested you can speak to the school about ways to hold on for the couple of years until it comes through. Might be worth paying for assessment? I don't know much about it - you'll have to weigh up the cost.

It feels particularly cruel that the kids who are most likely to have to leave school will be those who most need it (almost by definition - since those parents are willing to push themselves and accept a precarious financial situation to make the fees, since it is worth that to them).

And ironically, those are the children who will cost the state most to provide an education that meets their needs.

And cost the state most long term if their needs aren't met. There's a pp who has been clear that her adult DS is independent with a job only because his needs were met at a private school.

Triple whammy

As a post up thread.
Labour will not be excluding sen schools or children at other private schools. Well not at the moment anyway but things could change.
Labour think schools will attempt to cheat the system if they are excluded.

strawberrybubblegum · 27/02/2024 14:19

TizerorFizz · 27/02/2024 13:27

It’s ludicrous to say schools don’t make a difference. We all know quality teaching makes a difference. However a poor child should be able to access this and greatly improve life changes. As long as they aim high in uni and for work.

We don’t need as many degrees as we award. 20% don’t do jobs needing a degree. What we need is more choice post 16-18 that 20%.

I'm not saying that the school makes no difference, though appreciate that my frustrated one-liner might imply that!

I've consistently said that I think private schools give better education, and it's better education that gives better life chances not some magical privilege that comes with a school name.

Private school isn't the only way of getting better education.

There are far bigger differences of opportunity within the state sector than there are between 'good state + privileged family' and private.

So attacking private schools - and 20% really is a major attack - is illogical and hypocritical. It's mob mentality: hurting people you don't like.

Absolutely all for improving the state sector. But that's not what this policy is about.

user68901 · 27/02/2024 14:24

SheilaFentiman · 19/02/2024 14:47

"If your local school is not a good one then how about putting the effort into making it better."

I never understand this point. What is it that, let's say, the parents of 10 new pupils across years 7-9 at a state school who used to go to private school could do to 'make the local school better'? Why haven't any of the 1000s of parents already going done it, if it could be done?

(Private school parent who approves this policy because private education is NOT a basic. Kids will be able to stay in private as they are halfway through, but we wouldn't start them there today with this looming)

One way it would make state schools better is that if the number of engaged parents increases in the state school (because as we are always being told on MN, private school parents are very engaged), then the number of engaged pupils in a state school is likely to increase = ratio of engaged pupils : disruptive pupils is improved so teachers can spend more time doing their actual job of teaching. Teachers at state school, believe it or not, are absolutely overjoyed to have engaged kids in their classes .

TwistyTreeRoots · 27/02/2024 14:29

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strawberrybubblegum · 27/02/2024 14:36

I find @Labraradabrador very clear and concise. And that she understands exactly what I was saying. (I know I can be wordy!)

I think it's more than just having different ideas, we seem to have completely different ways of thinking. It's interesting.

You really are being very rude to her. Far more so than she was to you.