If labour win the election can they introduce VAT immediately?

[londonparent321]

(For school fees) Or do they need to go through the courts which could take years /never happen?

@EasternStandard i love the way you say it how it is 👏

Now my DS has finished at school ( independent fee paying) I no longer need to work full time. I took early retirement this year ( NHS pension) and work one day a week. If we had been forced to move DS to state, we would have probably moved him if he was in yr6/7, then I would have probably retired at 55.
DS will start uni later this year.

Supporting him financially will be far easier with maintenance grant.
With careful tax planning we will have money to pay off a decent amount of any loans he builds up. And more importantly it will allow us to stay under basic rate tax income level.
So we are no longer high rate tax payers. I suspect that many parents will do the same with the money they save on fees. The funds can easily be used to top up pensions and reduce tax payments. When you are used to paying 15-30k a year in fees you are going to use it to reduce your tax bill. Or it will be used to buy a place at the best state school via postcode.

DS is not aware of this, obviously I don’t want him thinking he’s going to have a free ride post uni, we are also using the money we no longer spend on school fees to build up a lifetime ISA to help him into the housing market.

@Labraradabrador so if you believe that the 'only' advantage you get in the majority of private schools is a superb well-rounded education, how is that not buying privilege, particularly if you believe that state schools are so woeful? I would actually disagree and say that the provision by many private schools is woeful, although that myth is very well peddled by their marketing contingent and those parents must believe they are buying a superior education or they wouldn't do it.

It's a bit hyperbolic to say that a whole sector is being punished. Most DC will stay put, belts will be tightened somewhat and some limping private schools will go bust. The top day and boarding schools won't suffer at all. If anything changes it will be a very slight shift in a more international presence but that's prevalent in all the top schools.

I think the one thing we agree on is that the VAT introduction won't solve anything. The maths doesn't add up and it is hitting in the wrong place. The grating issue for me is more how some parents are only now crying outrage when the state sector has been suffering for a long time. They were happy to bail on that but are now so concerned at the thought of what will happen to the state sector...nothing to do with it suiting their own narrative of course. It all rings a bit empty.

A sector shake up is overdue but, again, I take no glee from any DC being displaced.

Sorry my post was confusing. What I’m trying to say is that although we are now significantly better off now DS is no longer at school we are not living it up.
You get used to ring fencing the cash, now we are just ring fencing it again, and using it to enhance our pensions and reduce our tax payments.
So in effect HMRC will receive less revenue from us. I suspect this will happen with many high tax payers. Rather than going on a spending spree they will just reduce their tax bill and increase their pensions.
So in many cases there will be a net loss of revenue.

@TwistyTreeRoots if not gleeful then definitely indifferent to the negative impact of a policy that you acknowledge will do nothing for education more broadly. In practical terms is there much of a distinction to be made?

I fully recognise my children’s privilege, but they have that privilege regardless of where they are educated. It would be wilfully naive to think they could shed that privilege, or even lessen it, if they switched to state.

@Angrymum22 makes perfect sense to me - I am similar in that knowing my children are well provided for in private and having the pressure of fees has been a major incentive for me to increase my work hours. If we were in state I would scale way back or quit entirely. My husband would certainly retire earlier if school fees weren’t a factor. If we were to switch to state, hmrc would lose more from us than it would gain via vat.

I'm really trying to understand your world view, since you clearly believe it passionately - and it's very different to how I understand the world.

Do you genuinely believe that:

a) private schools don't on average give a better education than state schools? (obviously there will always be outliers in both directions in each sectors)

AND

b) the only reason for the different outcomes for state and privately educated children is a free-mason type system where privately-educated people give additional opportunities to other privately-educated people? And this is given because of the schools they both attended? (Not talking about Eton, but an average private school: there are about 2600 in the UK, and you've probably heard of about 10).

Really?!?

What mechanism do you think exists to make that happen??

At least give me a plausible scenario where John A who went to 'Random-private-school-in-Oxfordshire' gets unfair advantages ahead of John B who went to 'Pleasant-Comp-Next-Door'?

...Assuming they are similarly academically able, no SN or ND, both came from very similar middle class families, secure homes, lots of books at home, bedtime stories, music and sports clubs, tutor/kumon if they were struggling. Slightly nicer holidays and a part-time working Mum for John B (John A's mum works full time to afford the fees), but still both had nice family time and have engaged parents.

Seriously - what mechanism does John A's advantage come from??

And as a bonus, please tell me why paying for a better school is unfair.

But paying for a secure home, good nutrition, books, toys, music lessons, sports, drama lessons, kumon, driving lessons, and support at university is not unfair.

The 2nd list will make a much bigger difference to the child's outcomes.

Do you think everything in that 2nd list is in the reach of all parents??

What a strange post. You are spectacularly missing my points as well as being unnecessarily rude. I'll simplify for you ...

Nowhere have I said that I support the introduction of VAT on school fees. In fact I have said (quote)
"I think the one thing we agree on is that the VAT introduction won't solve anything. The maths doesn't add up and it is hitting in the wrong place. "

My real issue in this debate is (quote) "The grating issue for me is more how some parents are only now crying outrage when the state sector has been suffering for a long time. They were happy to bail on it but are now so concerned at the thought of what will happen to the state sector...nothing to do with it suiting their own narrative of course. It all rings a bit empty."

I don't support private education as I don't think a two-tier (yes, sticking by that classification) system is in the interests of the majority of children and it needs a shake-up. This particular measure is not that shake-up.

And finally...
"It would be wilfully naive to think they could shed that privilege, or even lessen it, if they switched to state."By your logic, of course your DC would lessen their privilege if they moved to state, if you really believe that state education is so woeful. What you say makes no sense whatsoever.

Let me simplify it for you @TwistyTreeRoots I have done my best to engage with your illogical and wilfully myopic posts

you have posted that you aren’t bothered that children will be displaced- what is that if not callous indifference to the impact of the proposed policy?

you continue insisting that there are two tiers, but admit that there are vast differences within state as well as within private sectors. You speak out of both sides of your mouth on that one.

you are critical of private parents expressing outrage over the issues in state education but (intentionally?) overlook the fact that many of us started in state to begin with. Many(most?) of us want a good state provision, and only looked to private out of desperation. I would LOVE to move back to state and feel like my children were provided for. Moreover as a child of poverty myself I feel real rage at how inadequate it can be for those without access to better. I am able to both make a pragmatic decision for my own dc AND hold broader views on the state of state education

and finally on my children and privilege- there are many ways we could use our privilege. I have two dc with SEN. I could use my money to pay for private assessments and jump the queue ahead of poorer children. I could hire lawyers and educational consultants to help me ensure my children got the resources they need at the expense of poorer children. I could quit my job and engage full time in chivvying the school/ferrying children to various therapists and extracurricular enhancements. That would also work as well, and Confer plenty of advantage at the expense of those who cannot do those things. Instead I pay fees at a good, supportive private school, pay more tax to hmrc, and absolve the state sector of responsibility for to higher needs children.

Probably not stupid, no.

Probably out of their minds with worry as to how they can support John B who has been bullied at the school next door.

Probably they would have loved to have a choice of other state schools to send him to, because they didn’t really want to have to work a 60 hour week, increase their mortgage term, and take on so much stress themselves, but they love their son so they will take all of that on for him, because they don’t want him to FUCKING WELL KILL HIMSELF.

Probably they do care about state schools, but weren’t prepared to sacrifice their child on the alter of altruism.

Probably they care so much that they lobbied everyone they could think of for better provision.

Or yeah, maybe they are just stupid.

My DC are at a small, local private school because state can’t meet their needs. We are not high earners - I work full time in nhs. If this policy comes in we will have to move DC to state school and I will reduce my hours or give up my job as I will do my best to provide what their current school does and will no longer have fees to pay. So the government will lose my taxes and clinical skills and will pay for my DC’s education.

Your lack of comprehension skills are really not my problem. One point only as I am out of patience with the blinkered vision on this thread.

😂😂😂

Really not a lack of comprehension skills on my part. Just trying to follow your illogical reasoning to see how you make wildly conflicting ideas match up. But that's clearly uncomfortable for you. I see that you can't come up with a plausible mechanism.

For my view, it's very simple. The school does give a better education, and better education does better prepare a person for the world.

That's obviously - and happily - also the case for the education that parents of state school children pay for. The stagecoach lessons which will help with interview skills and improve communication skills with friends and colleagues, perhaps even give the confidence to go for a tricky job or ask for a payrise; the piano lessons which teach that even when something seems impossible, persistent hard work will being you success; the football lessons through childhood which improve physical and mental health ready to face the challenges of adulthood, and may encourage lifelong participation in sport (and hence improved lifeling health).

I just pay for that all in one go. Which clearly turns it from being responsible parenting into being evil society-destruction which should be stopped.

You crack on with fitting those clearly irreconcilable ideas together. (or alternatively, continue relying on emotion instead of thoughts)

@ZebraF - do your children have an EHCP? If not, then prioritise getting one now and then if the legislation does exclude kids with an EHCP as pp have suggested you can speak to the school about ways to hold on for the couple of years until it comes through. Might be worth paying for assessment? I don't know much about it - you'll have to weigh up the cost.

It feels particularly cruel that the kids who are most likely to have to leave school will be those who most need it (almost by definition - since those parents are willing to push themselves and accept a precarious financial situation to make the fees, since it is worth that to them).

And ironically, those are the children who will cost the state most to provide an education that meets their needs.

And cost the state most long term if their needs aren't met. There's a pp who has been clear that her adult DS is independent with a job only because his needs were met at a private school.

Triple whammy

I don't think you really understood my point and I apologise if it caused offence. What you describe would of course be a sad situation but it is by no means the norm of why the majority choose private education. And even in this sad scenario, we should at least acknowledge that the parents do have a choice that most people in the country wouldn't have. And all schools have bullying, it is not exclusive to the state sector.

Whoever reported my post for saying "maybe they are just stupid" was a bit over zealous. The comment, although admittedly perhaps a tad glib, was not meant to offend, purely to illustrate my point. My point was that of course parents are not being stupid, spending tens of thousands of pounds each year for nothing. Quite the contrary, for the most part (SEN and bullying aside!) they are making a calculated judgement that they are buying advantage, which of course they are.

There’s no chance of them qualifying for an echp. Both are very high ability but have difficulties with attention and anxiety. Small classes with firm boundaries and clear expectations work brilliantly and work is differentiated to ensure they are challenged. Sadly that wasn’t available in the state schools and both found school very stressful and were not learning. I am desperately worried about the future.

@TwistyTreeRoots : "I would actually disagree and say that the provision by many private schools is woeful, although that myth is very well peddled by their marketing contingent and those parents must believe they are buying a superior education or they wouldn't do it."

Also* @TwistyTreeRoots : "for the most part (SEN and bullying aside!) they are making a calculated judgement that they are buying advantage, which of course they are."*

How is this woeful education also an unfair advantage?

So you are buying a better education in a user-friendly package because you can. Of course, that is your prerogative as I am allowed to hold the view that I would prefer a more equitable system with a good state provision for all.

However, this!!

That's obviously - and happily - also the case for the education that parents of state school children pay for. The stagecoach lessons which will help with interview skills and improve communication skills with friends and colleagues, perhaps even give the confidence to go for a tricky job or ask for a payrise; the piano lessons which teach that even when something seems impossible, persistent hard work will being you success; the football lessons through childhood which improve physical and mental health ready to face the challenges of adulthood, and may encourage lifelong participation in sport (and hence improved lifeling health).

I just pay for that all in one go. Which clearly turns it from being responsible parenting into being evil society-destruction which should be stopped.

Do you really believe that state school parents across the country can "happily" pay for all these bells and whistles to optimise chances of life success and that it simply boils down to what is included in the school day for parental convenience? Maybe some state school parents can pay for all this but the vast majority can't. Many are struggling to even feed their children at the moment.

If you genuinely do believe this, it would seem that your private school bubble is indeed working its magic.

I think you are making @strawberrybubblegum ’s point for her @TwistyTreeRoots

of course not everyone can afford all the enrichment.nor can everyone afford to buy/rent in a desirable catchment or even spend much in the way of quality time with their children. @strawberrybubblegum is just pointing out the illogic and hypocrisy of your fixation on one relatively uncommon area of inequality (private school) but willingness to defend other more common expressions of the same inequality.

I will say, though, that in my area there is a mile long waiting list for stagecoach, most private music teachers are fully booked, and expensive children’s art workshops get booked within hours of announcement. Despite living in an area that isn’t particularly affluent, many state school parents (and it is 95% state school) seem to find a way to pay for this privilege.

Sadly, it is the case that a majority of state school parents cannot afford any extra curricular clubs/lessons as the money is going on huge bills! We are a typical middle-class family with high joint income, my DH is an Architect and I work in Privacy/info sec, on paper you would think that these things are affordable but we are questioning the affordability of my daughter's piano lessons so there is no way that the majority of state school DC are receiving tutoring, drama club lessons etc. Unless the parents have no mortgage or the Grandparents are paying. Most holidays up until last year (when DH got a bonus) were paid for by our parents. We are lucky to have those opportunities but it is all based on luck now, asset wealth, not how hard you work. The next daunting cost is Uni maintenance fees as we don't qualify for anything and are means tested, so basically £63000 plus is no different to an income of £1 million!

Sadly, it is the case that a majority of state school parents cannot afford any extra curricular clubs/lessons as the money is going on huge bills! We are a typical middle-class family with high joint income, my DH is an Architect and I work in Privacy/info sec, on paper you would think that these things are affordable but we are questioning the affordability of my daughter's piano lessons so there is no way that the majority of state school DC are receiving tutoring, drama club lessons etc. Unless the parents have no mortgage or the Grandparents are paying. Most holidays up until last year (when DH got a bonus) were paid for by our parents. We are lucky to have those opportunities but it is all based on luck now, asset wealth, not how hard you work. The next daunting cost is Uni maintenance fees as we don't qualify for anything and are means tested, so basically £63000 plus is no different to an income of £1 million!

To add to that when my DS was sitting his GCSES last year there was no way we could afford tutoring, luckily he is very bright but again it is based on luck. People we know with DC at private school at the time just have none stop attention in the class and after school to get them to learn the formulas to apply in achieving the high grades. That attention just does not exist even in Ofsted 'good' Comprehensive schools, DD is in year 8 and told me of two lessons last week where due to them being run by cover teachers, no work was done at all, the cover teachers just told them to get on with reading a book, most kids wre hiding their phones.

Thanks, @Labraradabrador - that's exactly what I'm trying to say.

@TwistyTreeRoots - of course not everyone can afford all these things. That's what I and other posters keep trying to tell you:

It's. Not. The. School.

Our neighbours do pay for all these things for their 2 state-educated children. There's happily not very much difference between DD's life chances and theirs. Not identical of course because they're different children. DD is an only - which is why we can afford private, which gives her more of all those opportunities to learn - but they have the lifelong benefit of a sibling. And they have different strengths and weaknesses. Our families have different strengths and weaknesses (they're sporty and take their kids to loads of sports, I have family abroad and can teach DD a different language)

But there's no mechanism which will favour DD over our neighbours. They will all go out into the world and do the best they can with their own strengths and weaknesses: which are partly in-built and partly learned along the way.

So it makes no sense to punish people for choosing a private school. And it is punitive: it's ideological and will cause more problems than benefit. And that pisses me off.