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If labour win the election can they introduce VAT immediately?

1000 replies

londonparent321 · 18/02/2024 19:45

(For school fees) Or do they need to go through the courts which could take years /never happen?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
Runningfine · 25/02/2024 16:57

Bennettsister · 25/02/2024 16:28

I’ve taught in both private and state schools, including one very well known private school.
The longer I am teaching the longer I think that private schools having ‘charity status’ is totally indefensible. They’re not charities. Every now and then they’ll invite the local state schools to listen to a visiting speaker or come along to a sports event, or get the sports coaches to go out and do a few hours cricket training or something like that as ‘outreach’ and then say this justifies their charity status.
There are far more foreign students in UK private schools than declared - private schools want to make the number look lower than it is otherwise they worry they’ll lose interest from the domestic and interestingly also the international market - Chinese parents for example looking at England will want an ‘English’ experience at boarding school. So the son of a mega wealthy couple who have a flat in Chelsea will be put down as domestic student. Lots have dual nationality as well.
Anyway my point is that these students have loads and loads of money and the VAT won’t
bother them at all.
It will affect middle class couples who can only afford the school with a bursary. Loads of private schools, especially boarding, give out bursaries to British children. These are children from already comfortable backgrounds but the school will point to it as evidence of charitable work. Very hypocritical - it’s actually to keep UK numbers up.
I would argue that we need more middle class children in the state system. Aspiration is a huge huge problem. But if your friend’s parent is a doctor/university graduate/banker/well paid professional etc then suddenly its more
achievable and less intimidating.

Was the school Winchester @Bennettsister?
That's exactly how they do things there.

cardibach · 25/02/2024 17:01

Runningfine · 25/02/2024 16:57

Was the school Winchester @Bennettsister?
That's exactly how they do things there.

It’s everywhere. They like to make themselves look ‘better’. I’ve taught in two - a boarding school and a day school. Neither for the super rich, but still way beyond the reach of the average earner.

twistyizzy · 25/02/2024 17:08

spriots · 25/02/2024 16:44

5?

The vast majority of parents sending their children to private school will vote conservative either way

Wrong. No evidence that "the vast majority....Will vote Conservative". Lifelong Labour voter + private school parent. Never voted Tory but won't be voting Labour either now.

Labraradabrador · 25/02/2024 17:14

twistyizzy · 25/02/2024 17:08

Wrong. No evidence that "the vast majority....Will vote Conservative". Lifelong Labour voter + private school parent. Never voted Tory but won't be voting Labour either now.

Agree. Prior to this policy being announced would have said parents at dc school were more likely to be Labour than Conservative Party voters. Many of them are very vocal about not supporting Labour in light of this policy, though. Not saying it is going to change the outcome of the election, but the stereotype of private school = Tory is not remotely accurate (or at least is wasn’t)

Barbadossunset · 25/02/2024 17:15

Bennettsister why did you teach at private schools if you disapprove of them so much?

Labraradabrador · 25/02/2024 17:20

@Bennettsister charitable status has nothing to do with vat. Labour briefly stated an intent to take that away from private schools, took a couple of weeks to realise it was more complicated than they thought, and scrapped the idea. I think they have so little practice at actual governance that they have no idea how to craft actionable policy.

EasternStandard · 25/02/2024 17:21

@Bennettsister charitable status is not changing

Runningfine · 25/02/2024 17:25

Labraradabrador · Today 17:20

@Bennettsister charitable status has nothing to do with vat. Labour briefly stated an intent to take that away from private schools, took a couple of weeks to realise it was more complicated than they thought, and scrapped the idea. I think they have so little practice at actual governance that they have no idea how to craft actionable policy.

This is funny unlike the Tories who unleashed Brexit, Boris Johnson and Liz Truss on the country. Not to mention Rishi Sunak seriously!😒

Labraradabrador · 25/02/2024 17:29

@spriots i think in theory it is a popular idea. Labour have provided no detail about the actual substance of what they are proposing, though. They might be able to get away with that intentional vagueness through the election, but I am not sure it will remain popular given high potential for unintended consequences. Just like the higher rate tax - everyone supports it until they are actually affected due to frozen thresholds.

Another76543 · 25/02/2024 17:36

Runningfine · 25/02/2024 17:25

Labraradabrador · Today 17:20

@Bennettsister charitable status has nothing to do with vat. Labour briefly stated an intent to take that away from private schools, took a couple of weeks to realise it was more complicated than they thought, and scrapped the idea. I think they have so little practice at actual governance that they have no idea how to craft actionable policy.

This is funny unlike the Tories who unleashed Brexit, Boris Johnson and Liz Truss on the country. Not to mention Rishi Sunak seriously!😒

Edited

took a couple of weeks to realise it was more complicated than they thought,

It actually took them a good couple of years to realise it wouldn’t work!

From the article below :
“Labour is claiming that politicians talking about the charitable status was only ever a shorthand for changing the taxes schools paid.”

They really have no idea how to implement their plans and have shown they don’t understand how VAT is charged. I don’t know how anyone can think the policy has been properly thought through.

https://news.sky.com/story/labour-u-turns-on-plan-to-scrap-charitable-status-of-private-schools-12971212

Labour U-turns on plan to scrap charitable status of private schools

The Opposition still plans to apply VAT to school fees in a bid to raise more than £1bn. Sky News understands the reasoning behind the change in tack is partly because applying VAT is much easier than changing the charitable status of schools.

https://news.sky.com/story/labour-u-turns-on-plan-to-scrap-charitable-status-of-private-schools-12971212

spriots · 25/02/2024 17:36

Labraradabrador · 25/02/2024 17:29

@spriots i think in theory it is a popular idea. Labour have provided no detail about the actual substance of what they are proposing, though. They might be able to get away with that intentional vagueness through the election, but I am not sure it will remain popular given high potential for unintended consequences. Just like the higher rate tax - everyone supports it until they are actually affected due to frozen thresholds.

It's pretty normal for manifesto commitments to be high level - and we have yet to see the manifesto itself

Bit like that conservative commitment to an in/out referendum, the devil will be in the detail

twistyizzy · 25/02/2024 17:36

spriots · 25/02/2024 17:19

Loads of Labour voters changing their vote because of this just isn't going to be a thing.

https://www.pepf.co.uk/opinion/the-british-public-support-vat-on-private-schooling-but-youd-never-know-it/

Not if they haven't got skin in the game of course not but for parents who are already in the private system then be damned sure a number won't be voting Labour

spriots · 25/02/2024 17:37

twistyizzy · 25/02/2024 17:36

Not if they haven't got skin in the game of course not but for parents who are already in the private system then be damned sure a number won't be voting Labour

All the time people vote against their own self interest for bigger picture considerations.

I know I do - I will undoubtedly pay more tax under a Labour government and for less personal return

Labraradabrador · 25/02/2024 17:41

@Runningfine ’what-about-ism’ isn’t really a defence is it?

I have never voted conservative before and at the time would have done anything to remove boris, truss and brexit, but Labour are not exactly inspiring confidence in their ability to govern either.

i would probably prefer the current administration to labour, tbh. No deep love for sunak and hunt, but they seem far more competent at the actual work of governing than starmer. Doesn’t mean I agree with everything they do/ propose. It’s a bit sad, too - the bar for Labour is so low given past 5 years, but they can’t seem to articulate much in the way of actual policy that stands up to the slightest examination.

twistyizzy · 25/02/2024 17:41

spriots · 25/02/2024 17:37

All the time people vote against their own self interest for bigger picture considerations.

I know I do - I will undoubtedly pay more tax under a Labour government and for less personal return

I would be quite happy to pay more tax ie a specific ring fenced education tax spread out across the population for higher rate tax payers. That would be fair and also indicate that Labour were actually serious about raising standards in state schools.
This however is a petty, short sighted, populist policy aimed at "making the elite pay". By tne time you deduct the administration of the charge, the amount schools will be able to claim back for large infrastructure projects over the last 5 years etc the amount raise will be tiny and it certainly won't cover what Labour are aiming for.

EasternStandard · 25/02/2024 17:42

spriots · 25/02/2024 17:37

All the time people vote against their own self interest for bigger picture considerations.

I know I do - I will undoubtedly pay more tax under a Labour government and for less personal return

It’s not personal tax that bothers me it’s woeful policy that doesn’t stack up

spriots · 25/02/2024 17:42

EasternStandard · 25/02/2024 17:42

It’s not personal tax that bothers me it’s woeful policy that doesn’t stack up

If this bothers you, the current government must really upset you

twistyizzy · 25/02/2024 17:46

spriots · 25/02/2024 17:42

If this bothers you, the current government must really upset you

Personally yes it does hence why I would never vote Tory.

EasternStandard · 25/02/2024 17:48

It also lands 20% on a sector which will cost jobs and disrupt children’s education

For nothing but votes

It’s so bad. Any other sector people would see the issue. People only look past the damage because they get excited by taking something away from dc

strawberrybubblegum · 25/02/2024 18:27

Hughs · 25/02/2024 09:05

why is it different? I ask in genuine bafflement. Why is it okay to spend extra on a home in a good catchment or pay for tutoring to get into grammars - both examples of using money to buy access to better educational provision- but not acceptable to pay fees?

@Labraradabrador Because going to a slightly better state school does not somehow magically improve your chances of a top job compared to people from other schools who are as good or better than you.

(Plus the argument often seen on here - there will always be inequality so there's no point trying to do anything about it - is a poor one imo.)

going to a slightly better state school does not somehow magically improve your chances of a top job compared to people from other schools who are as good or better than you

What do you think that "magic" is? Seriously, have you thought through what the mechanism would be? Confused

Personally, I think there are several separate reasons why the outcomes between state and private are skewed: each reason contributing a part of the difference:

1.Family networks directly giving access to certain jobs aka old boys network. Would still happen regardless of school, and only applies to the very wealthiest/most influential families. Certainly no-one I know at DD's school.

2.Candidates having the 'social language' (common frame of reference and life experience, same accents etc) that makes them 'comfortable' and so seem a safer bet to employers from a similar background Thankfully less common these days, with focus on diversity. Also note that it works in both directions, eg trade apprenticeships avoiding 'posh' kids. Where it still exists, it's mainly from family, rather than school

3.Family wealth giving access to unpaid internships which lead to those jobs Nothing to do with the school, just family wealth.

4.Parents are usually stronger academically and wrt job competence than average: in order to hold the type of jobs which pay enough for private school. This results in a different ability distribution between students at state and private school. Of course not all private school kids are more capable that all state school kids. Of course there are plenty of bright, capable parents in low-paying jobs (possibly very important and fulfilling jobs), or who earn enough for private but choose state, or kids in state much more capable than their parents were. Of course not all private school parents are capable of professional jobs (may hold them through family privilege - but that's a small number), or some private school kids are paid for out of family money, or kids in private much less capable than their parents were. Of course I'm not saying that all private educated kids are more capable than all state educated kids - that would be ridiculous, and is in no way reflected in outcomes. But it's pretty obvious that if you remove most of the left hand side of the ability curve from private schools, then you have to expect that a higher proportion of private school kids would be more successful even if everything was completely fair and equal. So the distribution is skewed, but the school makes no difference to any individual child's chances, since it's basically their family genetics and upbringing.

5.Good education does actually help kids to improve as people and better reach their potential. When it comes to this part of the difference in outcomes, it isn't that private school kids are taking opportunities from state school kids who are better than them - it's that they have actually become more capable than if they had gone to state (whether academically, in social ability/confidence, or in perspective/attititude eg willingness to take risks, or in their expectations of what they can aim for). So they get opportunities - and make opportunities - ahead of state students who would have been the same as them had they gone to the same school. I'd argue that this isn't an unfair advantage. Certainly no more than the advantage you give your kids by reading to them, modelling good behaviour to them, giving them opportunities to discover the world like extracurricular activities and travel, feeding them well and giving them a stable home. In fact, all of those contribute much more to their life chances than education. But all of these things are a social good, making better, more capable citizens.

This last reason - good education actually improving the individual - is the only one where the school makes any difference! (All the rest are correlation, not causation) And it's why I've got my DD at private school.

tldr; As a pp said, don't confuse correlation with causation.

Prunesqualler · 25/02/2024 18:33

spriots · 25/02/2024 16:44

5?

The vast majority of parents sending their children to private school will vote conservative either way

Not middle England just affording it or spending all their inheritance on it
Not the Uni parents new to the game.

Its not full of landed gentry you know. Very many liberal minded parents searching for something better. As yes that includes at the so called super named schools

Wingham · 25/02/2024 18:36

EasternStandard · 25/02/2024 17:48

It also lands 20% on a sector which will cost jobs and disrupt children’s education

For nothing but votes

It’s so bad. Any other sector people would see the issue. People only look past the damage because they get excited by taking something away from dc

Edited

Another policy of envy.
A way to pit one against the other. These policies breed hate.

Barquentine · 25/02/2024 18:43

spriots · 25/02/2024 17:42

If this bothers you, the current government must really upset you

Some of us can look beyond the current Government
Labour didnt do such a wonderful job last time.
Lest we forget the lies and lives lost.

zaffa · 25/02/2024 19:00

otherwayup · 19/02/2024 09:58

What excites me?

The rich being taxed appropriately.

I don't think that's fair. Some children who attend private school will have rich families.
Some other children will have parents who have made extreme sacrifices because they prize education above other things.
If I could make it work, I would have DD in the local, small private school in a heartbeat. I'm clawing my way up at work to increase our earnings, I'm desperate for DH to teach there instead of his LA funded primary school because I know how much better the education and opportunities will be for DD. I will give up a lot to make it work.
We are not rich by any stretch of the imagination - yes, we are lucky to have a mortgage and a car and enough money to feed our families but that isn't rich by any stretch of the imagination.

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