If labour win the election can they introduce VAT immediately?

[londonparent321]

(For school fees) Or do they need to go through the courts which could take years /never happen?

No you misread and went on the attack

If you had not flown off the handle you would have seen my post was agreeing with you and merely asking if you had any restrictions ie over a certain amount

It is a myth that Education enhances social mobility? Sorry what, these arguments get more and more desperate. Maybe if your DC attend private school and you can't afford VAT you should look more closely to home at the people who can afford it as to why that chasm exists and aim some of the vitriol at them not people who are sending their children to schools were they can't afford to heat them and the building is falling down!

Labour seem to be waking up to the fact that tax effects behaviour given the change on non dom

I’m very surprised Labour have changed their mind on non-doms -I thought they were top of the list to do away with.
What made them change their mind?

In the spirit of not continuing aggro I have always wondered about a land tax and not known why it’s out of scope

I’d be interested in how much it would raise and if it was viable would vote for it over this policy

Fair enough, I agree and I don't know why it is not on the agenda.

I picked up a bit on Times radio and there’s something in the FT

Really quiet all round. Initially it was to be scrapped but now ‘modernising’

They are waking up to tax impacting behaviour I assume, ie nom doms are highly attractive and incredibly mobile and can easily bugger off. Similar to changing on no bonus caps recently

On any tax policy imo you need to look at if and how people will opt out

Hopefully for this policy too

All my posts are with this interest in mind, not really about my position personally which is why segues into where I live etc are really not relevant or interesting to me

They are waking up to tax impacting behaviour I assume, ie nom doms are highly attractive and incredibly mobile and can easily bugger off. Similar to changing on no bonus caps recently.

It’s odd they didn’t look into this before - rather like they said that public schools’ charitable status would be done away with but then changed their mind as it would be too difficult.

@Goldenbear . I went to private school until I was 12 so do understand the general merits and absolutely shit parts of a private education but I don't think who you vote for is all self-interest.
So which is it for you? Draw the ladder up to stop other people getting your opportunity or jealousy you left at 12? Or both?

This always boils down to why bother if aspiration and your money is taken away by governments. What’s the point of social mobility if you just tax, tax, tax those who have succeeded? There’s not huge gulfs in achievement between private and state schools. There’s a spectrum in each type of school. Grammars outperform lots of independent schools. Lots of comps are hugely successful and state kids can and do go to the best unis. We certainly see schools underperforming in some areas but dc are often not supported with stable homes and a strong work ethic.

You cannot drag others up to go to uni when it’s not possible. However many careers and business opportunities exist for these dc. We do not have 50% of school leavers going to uni either! It’s nearer 40%. We do have around 50% of the workforce under the age of 40 with a degree. Many are immigrants or gained qualifications later. It is inevitable some people are more successful than others and are more intelligent than others. The key is ambition and doing your best.

Is there a C option- none of the above?

I am not making an argument for or against private education. I am just posting out that fact that we have more graduates than ever, more children staying on post 16 at school, spending more per capita on education than 30 years ago and yet the wealth gap widens and social mobility continues to fall.

Foreign students wouldnt pay VAT would they?

AFAIK if you are invoicing a non-UK based company or person the VAT is Zero rated.

Which is a bit of a hole in the adding VAT to private school fees policy - foreign students potentially paying more than UK students for the same education.

The IFS estimate it will raise £1.6 billion. That is not a drop in the ocean for state education spending (yes, it’s only 1% of current spending but the extra percentages have to come from somewhere, and 1% from one policy isn’t nothing).

It looks like a simple process to amend the regulations, but there would definitely be a need to consult on the details. For example, there would have to be consideration of what to do about private tutoring, and whether to exempt special needs education.

There would also be a need to consider overlaps. For example, I've just had a look at the exemptions and they include sport and cultural services. Some of private school fees would be spent on the provision of sport and cultural services. Should that remain VAT exempt or would government say that sport and cultural services would remain exempt unless provided by independent schools?

Health and welfare is also exempt. Many private school staff will provide health and welfare services. Should that be exempt or not?

it's also worth wondering whether a new Labour government would also look at other currently exempt services.

I bet a lot more people use private healthcare. than use private education. Adding VAT to that would potentially raise huge amounts of money that could go into the NHS instead.

Betting and gaming is exempt. I'd definitely change that.

That’s ridiculous. Should all childless people receive a rebate because they don’t send kids to school? Should we receive a rebate because we don’t use the NHS for our children? A rebate every year a person doesn’t use the police or the fire brigade? A rebate because I didn’t put my bin out last week?

Private health insurance annual revs = £200bln per year
Independent schools =£ 10 bln per year

That's interesting.

Wonder what happens if fees are paid via an overseas registered company - reclaim the VAT?

Charity is a cold, grey loveless thing. If a rich man wants to help the poor, he should pay his taxes gladly, not dole out money at a whim.

Upthread I saw someone stated that a good Education does not promote social mobility.

This is plain wrong. It's not the only factor but it is a significant one. Why else are we all so agitated about it?

www.longdom.org/open-access/the-role-of-education-in-promoting-social-mobility-101987.html

@Notsuretoputit - my point there was in response to a poster saying VAT on fees will be 'the rich being taxed appropriately', which I don't agree with. Lots of other ways to tax 'appropriately', rather than taxing education that parents might opt to pay for.

"Cannot drag others up to go to uni" some may argue that is exactly what private schools do, creating success where no talent exists! This is not my opinion but this is what many think.

"In terms of absolute social mobility, the evidence suggests that a former golden age of upward mobility has been replaced by a modern era of declining opportunities and more limited upward mobility" Page 4

"Opportunity hoarding
The problem is that education has become the primary vehicle through which ‘opportunity hoarders’ avoid downward mobility. Elliot Major and Machin (2018) describe an ‘ever-escalating educational arms race’ in which the poorest children are hopelessly ill-equipped to fight." Page 14

"Importance of families
Studies published in the last two decades suggest that who you are born to and where you grow up matters even more than first estimated." Page 20

https://www.suttontrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Social-Mobility-%E2%80%93-Past-Present-and-Future.pdf

@Goldenbear I do not actually think that’s true any more. The university sector is huge and if dc can muster the grades they can go.

The difference isn’t in where you get the qualifications, it’s whether you actually want to go. Many private schools don’t have amazing added value stats. Some dc are already pretty good when they arrive. Some state schools have superb added value. Just look at the Michaela School! The grammars around me have superb added value too. The secondaries that don’t select are all positive added value here too. I dislike the ethos of schools like Michaela but added value gives dc the best chances in all schools but dc need a desire to succeed. Wanting more comes from within. Not just school. It’s not just about uni either. You can be very successful in business without a degree.

Yes and benevolent giving to a Food Bank is just a reaction to a symptom of systemic problems with our economy, why can't people see that? On the current trajectory by 2035, 200 families will have more wealth than the whole UK GDP!

The puritans hated bear-baiting ,not because it gave pain to the bear , but because it gave pleasure to the baiters.

Thomas Macaulay.