Is this usual for primary school?

[LollyPopLouie]

Ds is 6. He goes to a mainstream school with 60 kids over 2 classes. In his class there are 3 children with 121 support so the class is busy. In the other class there are 2 children with 121 so overall 5 over the 60 kids. Ds and other kids have had some issues with violence towards them. The 121 staff I'm not sure if they're able to control the kid they support. Is it usual for the needs in mainstream to be so heavy ?

Perfectly normal and there will be as many who have extra needs who won’t have any extra support.

Yep! But, the other chn should be kept safe . If a child is showing signs of violence or aggression they should be removed from the room or the rest of class relocated to avoid hurt. If they are hurting others and staff they can be excluded.

Yep unfortunately totally normal

That actually sounds low.

but agree the 121 support sounds a bit crap.

Yes and actually amazing that all those ehcps are in place already. My Y2 class has 3 children who I expect will eventually end up with ehcps but they’re not in place yet.

This is when most parents start to see what schools are dealing with. We have chn whose needs cannot be met in mainstream, they have been offered places in special school/ units but the parents can veto this so they remain in mainstream.

Really? If the school cannot meet their needs the parents can refuse a transfer?

Yes. Ultimately the parents have to agree. I’m not sure how many times they can decline an alternative before SS intervene . Some want to home school because they can get £6-8k pa to do so.

Equally, there are plenty of parents who would give their right arm to have their child attend a special school, but who keep getting declined.
I'm currently fighting to get my son 1:1. I've been warned it probably won't happen.

If they are hurting others and staff they can be excluded. Not as simple as that if they have SEN. Increased support is obviously needed though. The problem is that that costs money. Education is a mess.

Transfer to where? Hardly any places and huge waiting lists unfortunately

Yeah, totally normal - coming from someone who works in a school. It's quite frankly abhorrent for everyone involved... and here they are pushing attendance whilst hardly any government members show up to a parliamentary debate concerning SEN needs 🙄

No wonder some children don't want to go to school/are anxious about it... their educations are constantly interrupted by disruptive and deregulated children, and often physically targeted. Obviously I wish to add that this is not to point fingers at children with SEN. They have huge needs that are not in any way close to being met, leaving them, their parents, peers and teachers in awful, scary, and often unsafe situations.

I often wish I could go in with a bodycam and make a documentary of just our school alone to show the general population how atrocious things have become, and how drastically things need to change.

The 2023 stats are 17.3% SEN and 4.3% EHCP - in mainstream schools, this sits at around 2.5% with EHCPs and 13% with any SEN.

Yes, the support staff can't restrain or pick up the child to remove so incidents happen. Unusual not to have 3 classes.

@43ontherocksporfavor you do not get any money to homeschool. Even with an EHCP. You may (possibly) be able to get a personal budget for your child but that will be to provide the provisions in section F of the EHCP, speech and language therapy, OT etc.

Also - it is rare for children to be offered multiple places in special school or centres, there just aren’t any spaces anywhere at the moment!

Yep sounds pretty standard to me. Parents absolutely have to be on board to transfer if school say they can’t meet the needs of a child. But most LAs have nowhere to move children to if they can’t cope in mainstream. Schools can’t just say ‘we can’t meet their needs’ and they leave. Special schools are few and far between. It’s a massive problem and getting worse year on year in my experience. It’s all very worrying.

@PTSDBarbiegirl Staff absolutely can restrain a child. There are guidelines, rules and paperwork - but they can legally do it

Exclusion is very very unusual in my part of the UK. Violence is seen as unmet needs to responsibility of teacher, as per everything else. Unless it's a stabbing or suchlike.

It's a very grey area. Staff who are trained, registered as accredited to perform child restraints and work in ASN can use holds. Mainstream staff can only use a move of duty of care purposes otherwise its a common assault. Mainstream staff are not legally covered or permitted to do holds in my part of UK. There is ALOT of legislation here.

@43ontherocksporfavor yes to SEN children in a primary that is not fit for their needs but sometimes the parents refuse to accept it and then fight to get them into a specialist school for secondary when it becomes very clear their child will not cope there. I was in a year 5 class (volunteer but with qualifications) with 2 children who were working at KS1 level, they had to be removed from the class for 121 as staying in the class upset them as they are acutely aware of their educational level compared to their peers.

We need more specialist schools for primary aged children.

I think there needs to be an understanding that there are children with SEN and children with behavioural issues and sometimes they overlap. They are entitled to be educated amongst their peers. This can be great but also can be very challenging. Most schools will have some kind of calm room where a child is taken to calm down. I used to have to try to get children to ignore the kicking of the door heard down the corridor and shouting of let me out you fuckers.

However the TAs were trained to remove children from the classroom. The only people who weren't were the volunteers like myself and usually we are placed away from the most aggressive or violent children.

That sounds pretty low numbers for SEN.

DD's primary was 60 across two classes and 30% SEN in her year group alone but only 2 children with a 1-2-1.

Was a complete nightmare as she was supposed to be sat at the front of the class and have various other accommodations - BUT, so were another 10 children in her class. She was well behaved, but unfocused and severely dyslexic.

That sounds exactly like my child's year group. Normal.

It's normal yes.
When you have violent or disruptive kids, particularly without an EHCP, it pretty much just ends up taking up the entire support staff to remove them and supervise, and the teachers end up having to teach the other 29 children, of which a good proportion also have SEN, but not disruptive enough to remove.

But of course, the expectations of teachers are still the same, if not higher than ever before.

It's not going to end well.

That's low compared to our school. We have children suitable for specialist provision with willing parents but no places and they've been told not to expect a place whilst in primary. The situation is dire and children are being let down, both those who are struggling in mainstream and those who cannot get the attention needed as staff are overstretched trying to support the whole class and their range of needs.

@Polkadottablecloth I am being careful with what I write. But yes parents can and have declined places.

Can you explain sources etc for this assertion please?