20% vat on fees

[namechangedforthisone35]

IF Labour get in and IF the 20% does get added to fees, how many private school pupils will be moved to state? I have three kids (one not school aged yet) and in private school. One of many reasons because I didn't want them in a class of 30. I couldn't afford the vat increase so would have to move them but then that class of 30 becomes, what, 40?! In an already strained and unresourced system?!

Wwyd?

Y - I'd have to move kids to state
N - I'll pay the vat

Sounds like a strong argument for ensuring better funding for everyone's education, rather than reducing that funding whilst simaltaneously increasing the costs on state schools.

@jgw1 yes, as a society we are woefully underfunding state education, to our own future detriment. Fully support more money for state schools. Taxing private schools doesn’t accomplish that aim, though, it just reduces demand /access to private alternatives.

Instead of a political opportunity to appeal to those who like stuff being taken away, use the falling rolls to increase state funding per dc

A lower state burden and same budget means higher pp

Such a shite policy as @Araminta1003 says

What's being taken away?

Personally, I am worried about the reputational damage to the Brand UK Education PLC internationally too. Our unis are so dependent on the income from foreign students now. I just do not think it worth the risk. We are already a laughing stock internationally due to Brexit. If no other country levies VAT on Education at 20 per cent it would be madness if we do it, when we are so dependent on selling our educational services in the first place. Not even the US taxes private schools. There is literally zero precedent for this kind of thing anywhere.

Yes. It’s so ludicrous

Interestingly international student numbers are rising particularly fast in Canada (whereas in the UK they are fairly static) that charges far more in fees to international students than UK universities do.
Of course that may be because having studied for an undergraduate degree in Canada one can then work their and start a path to citizenship.

Cost is not the main factor in determining where international students choose to study.

I just cannot believe 'Brand Britain' is badly impacted by VAT on private school fees.

I do agree it would be a factor in uni fees and attracting international students, but Labour isn't proposing VAT on uni fees.

Seems there is also some debate in the US about taxes paid or not paid by private schools. Again, apples with oranges, as we don't have state taxes here, for example.

https://www.saveourschoolsmarch.org/do-private-schools-pay-taxes/

US schools:

State Corporate Income Taxes
Private schools, like any other business entity, may be subject to state corporate income taxes. These taxes are based on the net income generated by the school. However, it’s important to note that not all states impose corporate income taxes on private schools.
Some states consider private schools to be non-profit organizations and exempt them from this type of tax. It is advisable for private schools to consult with tax professionals or legal experts to understand the specific tax regulations in their state.
According to a report by the National Association of Independent Schools (NAIS), approximately 25% of private schools in the United States are exempt from state corporate income taxes. This exemption is often granted to non-profit schools that meet certain criteria, such as providing scholarships, offering need-based financial aid, or serving underprivileged communities.

Property Taxes
One of the main local taxes that impact private schools is property taxes. Property taxes are levied on the value of land and buildings owned by individuals and organizations. In most cases, private schools are not exempt from paying property taxes.
However, the tax obligations vary from state to state and even from one school district to another.
Private schools may be required to pay property taxes on their campuses, including classrooms, administrative buildings, sports facilities, and other structures. The amount of taxes they pay is typically based on the assessed value of their properties.
This means that private schools with larger campuses or located in high-value areas may have higher property tax obligations compared to smaller schools or those in less expensive neighborhoods.

“Of course that may be because having studied for an undergraduate degree in Canada one can then work their and start a path to citizenship.”

That will be the reason for Canada as well as job prospects further down the line. You get whole families from certain countries chipping in to give their kids a life in a Western economy, best accessed via uni places first. It used to be the easy pathway here too, back in the 90s.

The 20% by itself would have been affordable for us a few years back, but now we’re also paying more for energy, food, and need private healthcare because the NHS is broken, and more significantly DH’s income has been half what was expected for the last few years because the economy is so bad, and also our prep school fees have already shot up to cover the school’s increased energy and food costs.

We’re currently sitting on two offers from independent senior schools that would be a great fit for my child, and also a place at the state grammar school will be allocated to us on distance as DD passed the exam. Grammar school isn’t a good fit for my nervous SEN daughter, but we’re going to accept the grammar place because Labour’s plan is the last straw :(

(Can’t even consider the local non-grammar because DD would just get picked on for having gone to Prep school, it’s a place where bullies thrive and quiet or ‘posh’ children get assaulted.)

Will this all mean that state class sizes grow? Not at the grammar schools, as only a fixed number of children are allowed to pass the exam, but perhaps at other schools. I guess the least popular schools in rough areas, which don’t usually fill up, will become overcrowded.

What it really means is that poorer children have less chance of going to a highly rated schools, as families like ours take up the grammar places (the grammar exam is a test of how much you paid for tutors, not of intelligence), and in non-grammar areas houses near the best schools will be bought up by families who would in better times have preferred to go private.

Slow handclap for Kier. He doesn’t care about what he’s doing to education, he just cares about revenge on private schools because he’s pissed off that his own state school turned private while he was there. What a petty little man. I’m going to vote Tory for the first time in my life 😭

“Slow handclap for Kier. He doesn’t care about what he’s doing to education, he just cares about revenge on private schools because he’s pissed off that his own state school turned private while he was there. What a petty little man. I’m going to vote Tory for the first time in my life 😭”

This is a heap of manure. Labour has been concerned about private schools for decades, it’s not one man’s petty position.

Seriously?!

It would make more sense to argue that the current position of the Labour party is a compromise between those in the party who would abolish private schools, those who would remove charitable status (which is quite a challenge given the myriad of different laws that apply to the different schools) and the centre ground where many of the public and Labour party are to be found.

Keir it seems to me is steering a pragmatic course that will see Labour win the next election and therefore be able to make a start on making the UK a fairer country.

At least but vat on school fees does seem to have replaced but Jeremy Corbyn, Keirs beer, only a bit of cake, do state schools know what a woman is and so on.

“This is a heap of manure. Labour has been concerned about private schools for decades, it’s not one man’s petty position.”

That is correct. And what did the policies lead to? A massive boom in private education because they got rid of grammar schools, assisted places etc. What a mess! Have they still not learnt their lesson? Which is that it is best not to interfere. Tackle child poverty by all means and invest in the least advantaged, but messing with the education of the privileged does not work anyway. There are always loop holes.

I really hope the Labour Party does not try and rewrite the curriculum again as well. That would be a terrible mistake.

so you agree you were talking manure when you described this policy as Keir’s petty revenge, then?

Good-o

I am glad that we seem to be in agreement that private schooling is about buying priveledge.

“It would make more sense to argue that the current position of the Labour party is a compromise between those in the party who would abolish private schools, those who would remove charitable status (which is quite a challenge given the myriad of different laws that apply to the different schools) and the centre ground where many of the public and Labour party are to be found.”

“the centre ground where many of the public and Labour party are to be found.”

So why is Keir giving in the crazies on the left like the Tories did with the crazies on the right? When Joe Public does not actually want any of that anyway. When that is what all the research shows us. Why did it all become so extreme? Why are all the crazy 70s legacies in both parties stirring their heads like this at the cost of all of us? What and who is to blame for this? Voter apathy? The disenfranchised young? The elderly asset rich? The NHS holy cow?

Why is the next election still going to be run on all this crazy nonsense? Or is it?

It's a shame to not see Labour take this opportunity to focus on improving State schools rather than shooting at what currently works. At the same time they will drive away a decent chunk of those who actually pay the tax bill. They are going to be handed a truly broken country. They have a huge challenge in front of them. It seems such a wasted chance.

Currently private schools are the ONLY way we second talent from abroad because they tend to come with families. Educated successful parents will never accept the nearest local school place. They want to see a thriving school. People don't compromise on their kids given any sort of choice.

“
So why is Keir giving in the crazies on the left”

Eh? Is it impossible for you to read actual words?

The poster made a point that vat is a compromise as “the crazies on the left” as you style them would prefer to abolish private schools

VAT on Education is not a “compromise”. It is lunacy and there is no precedent for it in any other country. It is exempt in most countries for a reason. Because Education benefits society as a whole.
Taxing/punishing private schools in this unprecedented way is a crazy far left policy. And I doubt Keir Starmer believes this to be a good policy himself. It is like you say trying to appease the loonies.

But as a country we should all have significant trauma from appeasing the far right loonies and their stuck in the 70s politics. That is why I am aghast at this policy. [wont stop me voting Labour though but might translate to me leaving the sinking ship.]

The crazies on the left cannot abolish private schools. They may shout loudly about it. None of these muppet politicians have nearly as much power as they would like to think. Thank God for law and order etc, actual private ownership laws etc.

If we let them get away with crazy policies like this we are just going to get poorer and poorer and more and more ridiculed on the worldwide stage. Even if we subscribe to Socialist ideals, even they understood that free high quality education for all, including free Further Education, is the best way forward.

Personally, I do not actually think they will get away with implementing it anyway. What will happen to Purcell, Chetham’s, ballet schools, SEN schools etc etc - there are so many forms of private schools benefitting us culturally and helping children and society as a whole. It is complete lunacy.

@Charlie2121 - “privilege” is on the KS2 Year 5&6 spelling list…. Of the national curriculum. Together with “parliament”, “prejudice” “controversy”…

Are you proud of yourself @Charlie2121? Do you think you made a brilliant and incisive point?

Or do you think you are perhaps a tiny bit of a crapweasel?

At times you come across certain posters who have such a huge chip on their shoulder that reasoned argument becomes futile.

As it happens, I’m also not that keen on American TV slang.