20% vat on fees

[namechangedforthisone35]

IF Labour get in and IF the 20% does get added to fees, how many private school pupils will be moved to state? I have three kids (one not school aged yet) and in private school. One of many reasons because I didn't want them in a class of 30. I couldn't afford the vat increase so would have to move them but then that class of 30 becomes, what, 40?! In an already strained and unresourced system?!

Wwyd?

Y - I'd have to move kids to state
N - I'll pay the vat

I wasn’t specifically referring up you. Though the entitlement dripping from every sentence in your post above is deeply distasteful and vulgar.

Yes there’s a lot of movement in London schools. Everyone knows that. So what? Admission policies still apply to in year transfers and a degree of church attendance is required for church places - not merely a bung to the church roof fund.

Your figures are a stark reminder of the greed of some people and the gross inequality in this country.

”a degree of church attendance is required for church places - not merely a bung to the church roof fund.”

It is entirely down to how their admissions policy is drafted and they can change it after a consultation period.

I have friends in London who are Jewish whose children attend Christian church schools where you just needed to attend for a few months, not be actually baptised. Best local state school. It really just depends on what the school wants. Many are academies now and run their own admissions.
If you do some research, you may find that the church criteria will be widening now that the birth rate is shrinking as those schools want to stay on top and get lots of applicants.

Church schools are at liberty to change their published criteria after consultation. But the changed criteria then apply to all applicants

And I can well believe that there are Christian schools, especially which are now in predominantly Jewish or Muslim areas, who are making such changes. Nowt to do with VAT on school fees.

Report into current funding in schools.

https://ifs.org.uk/publications/annual-report-education-spending-england-2023

I have friends in London who are Jewish whose children attend Christian church schools where you just needed to attend for a few months, not be actually baptised

They still had to attend for months and meet the requirements set by the school. They didn’t bung the vicar some cash.

Our local CofE school appears to require at least 2 years regular church attendance, looking at the forms.

It’s a standing joke here that people find the Lord just long enough to get their kids’ forms signed off.

@jgw1 - Your figures are a stark reminder of the greed of some people and the gross inequality in this country.”

That is the intention. But the 1per cent and many in the top 5% earning wise are not necessarily all asset rich. What they have is earning potential and education and aspiration for their own children. If you take that away from them, then many other countries will welcome them. All Western countries need those top earners now. They are not going to stay to share disproportionately if you punish their children and unsettle them. Because if you mess with people’s children - it becomes emotive for them. It becomes a moral attack.

Just like a whole lot of hard-working Eastern Europeans left the UK after Brexit. They felt a moral attack on them personally. They felt unwelcome. They felt the general public was against them.

So, whilst I have no direct personal interest in the VAT on private schools, it is a really stupid emotive punitive tax that is not done in other countries. So it is utter madness, just like Brexit was.

"So, whilst I have no direct personal interest in the VAT on private schools, it is a really stupid emotive punitive tax that is not done in other countries. So it is utter madness, just like Brexit was"

I don't think comparing other countries is that helpful, is it? Having a quick squiz at Germany, for philosophical reasons, private schools there aren't allowed to make a profit. Systems are probably so different that they aren't comparable.

You think it is a really stupid emotive punitive tax?

Why is it that you think an elite educational service shouldn't have VAT on it? For example, lots of food doesn't have VAT on it but eating in a restaurant does.

Leave aside whether or not it raises any revenue, for a second. Philosophically, why do you think it should be exempt?

(again, private school parent and Labour voter)

Ah, I know the answer to this one.

One should not tax the rich as they have worked hard to earn their money and therefore deserve to keep as much of it as possible.

Private schools with charitable status in the UK aren't allowed to make a profit either. Any surplus has to be retained/spent for charitable purposes.

For example, lots of food doesn't have VAT on it but eating in a restaurant does.

"Food" is zero rated, but "catering" is standard rated. Can you not see the difference between cooking a chicken in your own oven at home and having a portion of KFC where someone else has prepared and cooked your food, served it to you, wrapped it, kept it warm till it's served to you, etc.

@SheilaFentiman

Philosophically

Philosophy doesn't pay the bills. You have to factor in other aspects such as human behaviour, ease of evasion, ease of collection, unforeseen consequences etc.

It's why Brown and Corbyn made so many policy mistakes - Brown never got to grips with understanding Human behaviour and Corbyn put ideology over practicality.

Um, of course I can.

Did you actually understand my post?

The point has been made on this thread that education is VAT exempt. My point was that it is perfectly possible for food to be VAT free but a higher level of service, such as a restaurant meal, to have VAT on it. Hence, why should a higher level of education service be VAT exempt.

Hope that clears it up for you.

I am curious as to Araminta's philosophical position. I am entirely at liberty to ask her that.

Indeed, it is an excellent example of how a non-essential item attracts VAT, much like private school fees are a non-essential item.

Philosophy doesn't pay the bills. You have to factor in other aspects such as human behaviour, ease of evasion, ease of collection, unforeseen consequences etc.

True and good point in pp re schools as charities not for profit

Fortunately there is already a system in place for collecting VAT and to the best of my knowledge it works quite well.

For the masses, yes, but there are also major problems. Such as the billions lost in VAT through fraud, the black economy etc. Lewis Hamilton buying his jet via Isle of Man to avoid paying VAT, etc etc. Not to mention multiple court cases arguing whether there should be VAT on jaffa cakes, teacakes, cooked chickens, and the notorious Greggs Sausage roll and pasty fiasco.

It's not that simple!!

What is "private" education? Would there be VAT on swimming lessons, music lessons, football coaching, etc., done outside school?

Uni is a luxury, so should there be VAT on Uni fees?

I wasn't aware 25 percent of DC were educated privately in the first place. Then there will be some who can afford the VAT.

“I am curious as to Araminta's philosophical position. I am entirely at liberty to ask her that.”

It is as simple as I do not subscribe to crappy hate policies that do not stack up rationally. Brexit/Rwanda/stir up hate towards private school kids - all the same populist nonsense. Trying to get Bob down the pub to think “they” EU bureaucrats/refugees/rich kids are the problem to detract away from the real problems none of our politicians want to be honest about.

I just fundamentally disagree with this type of nonsense politics. What is so difficult to understand about that?
VAT on private schools will lead to less revenue for UK corporate overall. It is as simple as that for me. Which leads to poorer people being poorer ultimately.

I want a politics of positive outlook. I want Starmer to be better than giving in to the left wing lunatics in his party. We have had enough of that from the Tories, and yes they are at it again. Trying to make Bob give a shit about Rwanda and the boats.

So because Lewis Hamilton does not feel socially responsible enough to pay taxes in the UK, other rich people shouldn't either?

Philosophically more / better education is always a positive. Education tailored to individual needs (which mainstream rarely provides regardless of funding) is also a benefit to individuals and society at large.

Taxation penalises an activity, reducing demand. If we want more / better education that meets individual needs more broadly we should make it easier to access rather than penalising it / painting it as a ‘luxury’ item.