If Labour make private schools charge VAT then they should allow new grammar schools to be created

[iPaddy]

I live in an area with zero grammars, no real choice in secondaries other than (often failing) local comprehensives or private.

I appreciate the arguments against private schools (creates unfair advantage) but what about areas with grammars? That's also an advantage. I'd love the option of a grammar school for the kids locally. The bright ones are being let down by the current situation. Has Labour said how they will address that?

My understanding of why Kent continues to have an 11+ system is……money. Too much money to change the system.

It is always about money.

For many children the advantages start in prep & pre. prep, the state system has a lot of catching up to do way before 11+.

I’m an ethnic minority, I passed my 11+ with no tuition. Last time I checked I have never been a little white girl or had riding lessons. Some of us do actually read. This comment is just dripping with the racism of low expectations, it’s insulting. Accessible pastimes my ass. Also, just in case you raise it no my parents didn’t make me do hours and hours of homework everyday either.

@findingithardertoday - well said. Should this test continue, it should be redone to eliminate this kind of classism. I would have it rewritten and redone. It should be a test of raw ability.

It is profoundly depressing that so many people still adhere to the false belief that intelligence can be graded and opportunity rationed (for the alleged best and brightest) at age 11 on the basis of a flawed test laden with class and social bias. Just putting that out there for those in favour of special treatment for their own special children. We should be focused as a Nation resolutely on raising the quality of provision for all. Grammar schools, like oil lamps, typewriters, and printed newspapers, should either be consigned (or on their way to consignment) to the history books.

Where do current labour MP's send their children to school?

@Coldcaller Is that a joke?
and I hope calling children’less than ideal peers’ is a joke otherwise it’s disgusting

Less than ideal Peers? I wonder where you imagine that you sit in this hierarchy of ideal and less than ideal people? Let me guess, somewhere near the top? 😂

A horse moving to a "cantor "would be strange indeed

1. Cantor an official who sings liturgical music and leads prayer in a synagogue.

(in formal Christian worship) a person who sings solo verses or passages to which the choir or congregation respond.

Kier Starmer went to our local grammar. (now private >£20000/yr).

Does he school his children privately? Do we know?

No i probably sit near the bottom....

From my perspective I sent my ds to a grammar school where he would thrive, not get higher results. He is neurodiverse, as is a lot of his class, and it provides a safe haven where you are not bullied for being nerdy. Yes, there are some prep school kids there, but also many kids from very modest homes. I would say the most over represented group is South Asians, often from v modest backgrounds, but for which a grammar school education is highly valued.

Although the social mobility aspect isn't what it was, in my area there is a much accoladed comp which is highly selective on postcode, and the grammars do offer at least some opportunity for a bright child 'living on the wrong side of the tracks'. That said, I do have a lot of issues with grammars, especially amazingly bright kids being shipped across counties, forced into ridiculous daily commutes for the perceived advantage of a superselective.

I find the comments saying "I got to go to a great grammar and my sister had a crap time at a crap secondary modern, therefore grammar school is terrible!" odd. Surely the secondary modern was terrible. Instead of getting caught up blaming one school or another on why some kids get a bad education, we need to properly fund all schools (Inc grammars which receive the least funding, but especially special schools which are grossly underfunded) so that all schools can educate our kids well.

Kinda makes the point about elitist questions doesn't it?

I admit though, you've made me look a right clown there! You should send me to the Secondary Modern where I could learn about woodwork and lathes for our massive manufacturing sector, or to receive some career advice about a life on the bins. It's obvs where I belong.

Get ye back to Pedants Corner. 😆

PS, I omitted the apostrophe on "Pedant's" to wind you up.

A simple Google shows you his DC are not educated privately, and never have been. He’s instead criticised for living near great comps as he lives in an expensive house.

Like many in Hampshire, many of whom extol
the benefits of comprehensives.

pedants' ?

Is it Pedants or Peasants Corner....

Pedant's or Peasann't'sss.... !

We are all in the peasants corner in truth, but some like to pretend their education makes them otherwise

@Gloschick I am glad your child got the support they needed and would never begrudge an ND child of a good school place. I have an ND child and I know the stress of school placements. I would ask you to consider though whether grammars are really the only possible answer to ND needs? I don't believe they are. What matters if having teachers who are trained and not just paying lip service to inclusion, money into the disaster that is CAMHS, and funded EHCPs that provide clear legally binding tailored education solutions for ND children. I don't personally see Grammar schools as a condition precedent to any of those things.

I did google and as you say catchment is a marvellous thing. I remember there was a furore because Diane Abbott privately schooled her son.

We naturally want the best for our own children first, but if we have a social conscience we want the best for all as well.

@quantumbutterfly I am but a humble bin man who failed his lathe exam at the local Secondary Modern having failed my 11 plus for lack of intelligence and having spent too much time with the "less than ideal people" behind the bike sheds, so you'll have to excuse my incorrect use of the singular over the plural.

@findingithardertoday I agree. It was just in response to the posting of the guardian article that somehow the only thing grammar parents are interested in is results. It is more complex.
We had intended to educate our kids in a fully comp area, but had to move into a grammar area for work, and you have to work with the system you are in. I agree ND kids can be provided for in a comp environment, esp if those things you mentioned are provided. I do think comps need to be smaller though as 10 form entry (like my local comp) is too big for many kids, not just ND kids.

You're a binman! How dare you haunt the hallowed halls of mumsnet.

Know your place! But please empty my bins this Friday they're starting to smell.

Blair’s oldest son went before he was PM.

Abbots son went six years into a Labour government.

Corbyn’s son went either one or two years into a Labour government.

If, as politicians they are so against selective/private education then they should put their money where their mouth is, regardless of who was in power at the time.

I imagine most of them (the MPs) also benefited from no tuition fees at University (if they went), yet the introduction of these meant many less well-off students couldn’t afford to go when it was their turn. Another time that the bright were excluded from furthering their prospects.

Yes. All true. My child is still in primary. He has ASD, ADHD, PDA. (...deep breathe...). I am already thinking about the fact that asking him to move between classrooms umpteen times a day, into different class populations of up to 30, headed each time by different teachers, will be like asking a blind person to read from the white board, or a wheelchair user to manage the stairs to get to the first floor classroom. But I'll stop there as thread not about SEND. Good luck to you!