If Labour make private schools charge VAT then they should allow new grammar schools to be created

[iPaddy]

I live in an area with zero grammars, no real choice in secondaries other than (often failing) local comprehensives or private.

I appreciate the arguments against private schools (creates unfair advantage) but what about areas with grammars? That's also an advantage. I'd love the option of a grammar school for the kids locally. The bright ones are being let down by the current situation. Has Labour said how they will address that?

Yes I agree with you @VineRipened - but I just don’t think the whole country benefits from the London set up.

We got all banding test results and grammar test scores before allocation day for all 4 DC. Admittedly, it was a big rush each time with less than a week to decide on what order to put schools in.

In particular, with tech I agree there could be lots of knowledge sharing across schools and trusts.

I guess Latin is a private/grammar school unique selling point then. But I find that quite sad. I don’t think of it as “niche”. Neither Russian or Mandarin for that matter.

@Araminta1003 you're right. In rural areas the choice is often either the local secondary or no school at all. Travel distances are prohibitive. Occasionally there will be a private near enough. Reducing choice even more seems the wrong way to go.

I went to boarding school because the local school was a distance away and father was working out of the country/continent. Boarding school meant he could work in 3 week stints, be home for exeat, half term and holidays and we got to have a full experience of all the extra curricular activities.

I would really like weekly boarding to be an option for all working parents for children who are 13+. In my field a 12 hour working day is normal and it’s very challenging to do this as a single parent when you aren’t high income with someone at home.

@Araminta1003 The Davidson institute is privately funded by a foundation. They get certain government grants but it’s a billionaire behind it. I think that’s why it works.

The wife wrote a piece about their experience of trying to find the right opportunity for their children to learn and there was nothing. New Jersey just passed legislation that giftedness needs to be addressed by the school district but special needs provision only requires to bring the child to grade level. It’s a problem for children who are 130+ on the IQ test. My daughters experience of public school here has been so bad I will never let my children attend a school that doesn’t teach to the child. She was so under stimulated she ended up having these explosive outbursts. Their response was to restrain her, she chocked on her hair in one incident and thought she was going to die. I’ve sued them but it got her nowhere and nothing has really changed. I’ve gone private and won’t go back for any of my children’s education. I didn’t have children for them to be assaulted.

I think my friend had it right when she said to me "I don't agree with private schools, faith schools or selective schools" - all divisive, all unfair.

@Potterinthegarden ur friend forgot to mention grammar, catchment based selective admission, priority selection for ppl with credit universal, pupil premium etc!
The ENTIRE SCHOOL SYSTEM is applying various forms of selection at any time.
I work super hard, full time, but I get ZERO benefits starting from no support for child minding, I can't afford decent borough so I get selected by bad state schools, even the one decent one applies prejudice cz it prioritises ppl on credit universal etc and I just get thrown to the bottom :)
Benefits for able people MUST GO! then only can this country wake up and lift the weight. if third world countries like India can survive and do better in education, what is UKs excuse. I'm surrounded with people who thinks staying on benefits is more lucrative than going to work.

@Potterinthegarden that's a lovely theory so long as all schools are equally good, have an identical demographic intake and no school is allowed to specialise in any area or have any particular strengths. There must be no varition in talent and charisma among school leadership, then there will be nothing to choose and all pupils can recipe an identical education.

Obviously rhe theory requires writing-off the educational prospects of those who can't cope with that kind of school environment because if there is no variability there will be no refuge. I am sure your friend thinks that's a small price to pay to ensure fairness.

Have a look at secondary school performance data for High Wycombe. One of the Grammar schools had 4 disadvantaged pupils sit GCSEs in 2023 and another had 5. One of the non grammar schools had 60.

So namechanged .. don't want to out friend.

Friend has one child in a grammar and the subject choice is amazing, it is just incredible what her child is learning.

Second child has not got in, she under -estimated all the richer and prep school students who have paid more and done more.

She lives in a neighbouring area to a grammar school area. The comprehensive and academy results are dire compared to the grammars. Sometimes only just over 40 percent of students get a grade 5 or above at gcse.

There are really poor people at grammars who don't fall into pupil premium, not everyone can claim benefits. This will be taken away from more people as private parents hedge their bets. Also friend has noticed more people switching from private to grammar because the parents perceive it will help their child get into university.

And for my friend yes there will be other comprehensive areas that have better schools but in her view you often need an expensive house to go with it. So in her view grammars are crucial for social mobility. But you won't read about her children.

There are really poor people at grammars who don't fall into pupil premium, not everyone can claim benefits. This will be taken away from more people as private parents hedge their bets. Also friend has noticed more people switching from private to grammar because the parents perceive it will help their child get into university.

Thank You Truelife : Many posters go on about FSM numbers being tiny in grammar schools. This however does not tell us how many parents are marginally above the level for Free School Meals. So 1 parent working full time on minimum wage would not show up in figures. There are no statistics to show how many families have incomes under £25000 a year that have children at grammar schools. All the FSM numbers tell us the numbers of the very poorest not the numbers on the next levels up.

Many posters go on about FSM numbers being tiny in grammar schools. This however does not tell us how many parents are marginally above the level for Free School Meals. So 1 parent working full time on minimum wage would not show up in figures.

The fact is that all grammar schools in this country has lowest FSM% across all state schools, and much lower than state comprehensive schools. Grammar schools are full of middle class who thinks the school promote social mobility but it isn't.

This as the mother of 2 grammar school DCs one now at Oxbridge. It is overwhelmingly middle class and the few who do not fit this mould tend not to do so well and don't stay on for sixth form.

This is exactly what will happen and, in fact, is already happening. More children are going to grammar from our prep school this year, and more went last year. They have been prepped for the entrance exam and can, for example, afford to rent in the catchment area to ensure they get a place. They have now taken a place which another child could have had.

Having said that, there are plenty of people who don’t live in a grammar catchment area who don’t have that opportunity. I can’t see how that is fair, when a child’s opportunity in the state system is dependent on their postcode.

Surely she should be looking to the area she is in for her child who did not pass the 11 plus and not a neighbouring non-grammar school area? If she wants social mobility for the grammar school kids and her child did not make the grade, then she should be willing to accept the actual alternative, not start looking about for non-grammar school areas.

Ah - I see she was actually sending her other child out of area to go to the grammar. She shouldn’t really be surprised if the local results of other schools, even out of area but nearby, are depressed as a consequence, if that is what parents are doing. If you have a nearby “academic” school which creams off those most invested in an academic education, it is not surprising if the other schools start to specialise in catering for something else…

@Truelife "Friend has one child in a grammar and the subject choice is amazing, it is just incredible what her child is learning."
That's interesting. What subjects is the grammar school child doing?

Unfortunately sen is a much bigger issue than people realise except when you look at literacy in prisoners.

The real divisive issue in education is locking out pupils with sen and not teaching teachers what they are and how to support it.

But that's not fashionable or what people know unless they have a child with sen.

When you think a system will kick into place to support your struggling child...then you realise there is nothing system, it's the blind leading the blind...

You do realise where the true inequality lies in education.

The left and unions don't like this though.

Eh? The left and the unions what?

What I do think is clear is 1) sen should be tackleded with teacher training and more properly trained Senco etc.

2. the proper old fashioned grammar system should come back with improvements of course where it was teacher who put forward students and helped students.

Noble high..

I've seen you on so many threads re sen...

I thinks one you said "teacher don't diagnose mate" in response to a desperate mummy trying to understand the "system" failing her child.

Technically no of course teachers don't diagnose. That's not what they do but they should be armed with basic knowledge of sen and tips and hints and what sen means.

I've also seen you state you don't even read ehcps.

But I've seen you using sen as a tool to bash underfunding without ever actually knowing what the sen issues are.

Oh it's you. Misrepresenting conversations again. I didn't say that to a 'desperate mum'.

And yes, I don't read my students' EHCPs because I don't have access to them. It's not like I deliberately ignore them

Waste of time engaging with you because you don't post in good faith.

State schools are having to pay 20%vat , day centres are having to pay 20% vat , businesses pay 20% vat so why on earth should private schools have a free pass ? It’s ridiculous.
Time to join the real world and level the playing field

This is just not true. The policy would not have been such a hassle if state school had to pay 20% VAT.

Private schools are already paying vat on their vat-eligible purchases. Nothing exempts them from paying vat.

Thr proposal is that vat should start applying to the fees they charge and if they do they will actually pay less vat because vat only applies once in any supply chain so they will be able to reclaim the vat paid on computer equipment, sports equipment, building works etc.