If Labour make private schools charge VAT then they should allow new grammar schools to be created

[iPaddy]

I live in an area with zero grammars, no real choice in secondaries other than (often failing) local comprehensives or private.

I appreciate the arguments against private schools (creates unfair advantage) but what about areas with grammars? That's also an advantage. I'd love the option of a grammar school for the kids locally. The bright ones are being let down by the current situation. Has Labour said how they will address that?

Why?

I live in London and there are openly selective comprehensives.

In fact as far as I'm aware many good comps and 6th forms have always done some selection.

London might be an exception? We (rural area) have no selective secondaries.

Are all kids that go private brighter than average then?

Why are the brighter ones being any more let down than other children in your area? What's needed is better funding for your comprehensives.

What have private schools got to do with grammar schools?

If you ignore the tutoring problem private schools are for those who can pay, grammar schools are for those who pass a test.

Sounds like the issue is failing comprehensives tbh.

It's not all about funding, it's about creating different choices for different children. The thinking behind grammars in the first place was acknowledging the benefits of selective schools for some children. Isn't it unequal that some areas have grammars and some don't?

Even if comprehensives are not "failing" - don't grammar schools give children a different choice / experience and possibly an advantage towards one route? One that others (like the ones on my county) don't have? Our local private school - with relatively modest fees - has definitely filled the gap for families who feel their very academic children would thrive more there than in the large comprehensive.

We do not need selective state schools. We need

More special school places
More specialist schools and units
More funding for LSA support in schools
Vocational course funding for students 14 plus
Rebuilding and improving facilities
Behaviour support teams

Why do you think the state needs to provide more options for bright children? Why do they deserve more support and options than average or low attaining children?

Most kids don't get into grammar schools and the existence of grammars has a detrimental effect on the other schools in the area. Why would you want that for your area?

So, because the Labour plan is set on adding vat to private school fees in private schools that currently benefit from charitable status, and making it a financial stretch for those who won't be able to afford it, now you think it's a good idea to increase the breadth of schooling options for state schooled children? Is that right?

Because I thought I was far too hopeful in thinking this move might at least make those who have stepped out of state provision more invested and motivated in improving state education but, despite the self entitlement and un-workablility of the proposal, that's really cheered me up.

I agree. In our local comp they let the bright ones wait for the lesser able to catch up. I think it’s a shame.

No!

We shouldn't be funding so that certain (already advantaged by being born clever) children to escape a poor system, we should be funding the system for all adequately.

Fund the comprehensives properly!

Our children are not a social experiment! The more able have the right to be stretched accordingly and if I had the money I’d be putting my child into private in a heart beat.

i dont really get what advantage a grammer offers over top set. I dont really understand what being in a building with only top set offers over being in a building with a mix of people. I guess if a comp has a very small intake you cant fill a top set class but are any that small anymore? I also cant see why local comps cant work together to stretch able pupils if need be.

The fair thing is to abolish all state selective schools. They were meant to close but some hung on meaning that where you live changes you chances of a state education. We need good comprehensive schools for all

I have chosen twice to live where there are comprehensive schools. Where there are only comprehensives and they are good, those that are bright do just as well as grammar and I think that they are probably happier.
Where there are grammars, they drive frankly hysterical behaviours.

for some, attending a private school isn't about grades, it's about a nice learning atmosphere. smaller classes more 1-1, more sports, more extra curriculars and fingers crossed less learning disruption.
what appears to be needed is more suitable settings for special needs children and possibly a totally separate avenue for those who display antisocial behavior.

Grammar schools were needed in the 50s when there was a great expansion of clerical jobs. Today these white collar jobs are increasingly insecure and poorly paid. AI will takeover work in this area. We also know a lot more about dyslexia and much can be overcome with technology. Grammar school pupils are increasingly there as parents paid for tuition or prep school so they aren't for the brightest nowadays either.

Universal credit that covers housing and food would help children reach their potential and make school a better learning environment.

Spend money improving all comprehensives so kids can walk to their local school and all get a good education.

Grammar schools near me have kids from families who could afford 11+ tutoring for 2 years. Other kids travel 30-40 miles each way for the grammars as a cheaper alternative to private school. Less wealthy, local bright kids miss out on grammar places.

DS is in selective private education. The difference isn't a benefit of selective education for some kids, it's basically paying to be in a school with other supportive parents. If in theory VAT pushed kids out (in our school VAT won't make a difference to the cohort). Those supportive parents will end up in the maintained sector and bring up the overall level.

Labour will hopefully resolve the per pupil funding issue once they make the VAT change. While we do use it, selective education including grammar is an unfair lottery.

https://theconversation.com/grammar-schools-damage-social-cohesion-and-make-no-difference-to-exam-grades-new-research-93957

Grammar schools do allow social mobility but the criticism is that it leaves the rest behind.

Because it is a race to the top on a world wide stage, so why should those capable of achieving the best academically be held back by those simply not capable.

We are in a similar situation OP it's faith school (1st choice) or move into the catchment of the local outstanding comp if we want to use a state school. Other option is private. I won't compromise DS education so using the local okay school isn't an option for us it might be for some and that is also fine.

Private for us is about the results, but also not paying for tutoring and having after school clubs on site vs us taking him to them. He's still going to have the contacts through our friendship circle and the help to achieve academically so closing the school wouldn't help those in other schools.

Grammar schools are life-changing and can be a lifeline out of poor areas. My FIL was scarcely literate, my MIL was a part-time cook.. they are well-meaning but could never have shown my DH the pathways that grammars did (he got a PhD in the end). They obviously could never have afforded private. There's a common argument now that middle class people will hire an eleven plus tutor, but there will still be incredibly bright working class kids who attend without one. I think a lot of the people who are vocal against them have never gone to a big standard shit comprehensive and seen how demoralising education can be. Some arguments to consider for those against:
Do you disagree with sets in school? This is a form of academic selection; a grammar school applies this at a larger scale.
At what age is selection appropriate? Universities obviously select academically prior to entry; colleges and sixth forms do too.

There are very few voices in our media who support grammars though. I've often wondered if this is due to suspicion that their kids would not qualify. Wales used to have some of the best grammars and educational outcomes in the country, now educational outcomes are severely lagging behind England. They put a lot of money into comprehensives too - is this an improvement?

If you do want to read more on it, Peter Hitchens wrote a book relatively recently on the subject. Lots of eye opening statistics