If Labour make private schools charge VAT then they should allow new grammar schools to be created

[iPaddy]

I live in an area with zero grammars, no real choice in secondaries other than (often failing) local comprehensives or private.

I appreciate the arguments against private schools (creates unfair advantage) but what about areas with grammars? That's also an advantage. I'd love the option of a grammar school for the kids locally. The bright ones are being let down by the current situation. Has Labour said how they will address that?

Improve all comps.
Separating kids at 11 okd style grammar vs non grammar failed many. Two if my dc attended state comp both did really well. (A*, top uni offers) But equally kids who attained average or below were supported.

I don't think it's hypocritical to fervently believe that state education needs urgent reform and investment and to have policies which are designed to disincentivise private education and provide a funding boost to state schools, whilst also choosing a private school for your own children.

Maybe if at the decision point for their own child's education was at least 10 years into a labour government, and in that decade of power there had been no financial crises or global catastrophes and a seamless introduction of a new tax regieme to create the required funding such that they had no excuse to have not alrwady achieved a situation where the state schools were great - then you could insult a labour politician who still chose private. I don’t think the current crop of labour mps who have used private schools had guaranteed access to an excellent state school so would have had every right to look at an alternative if there was one available. I am sure their choice didn't stop them from doing what they could to improve the state schools that they had immediate knowledge of the inadequacies of.

Surely what that shows is that well-funded comprehensives where schools are not also required to provide social services support for children & families, and where other services such as NHS are likely to be less over-stretched CAN be successful for very able pupils? Rather than create more selective schools, we need to work out how to remove - often through funding of other services - the barriers that prevent all schools achieving this standard.

Do people actually believe the vat raised Will specifically be used to better fund comps 😂😂😂

Something that really helped in one of my early state schools was having a class of the 25 worst behaved kids in the year group. The senior leaders taught them and it did improve things dramatically for a while until some bright spark said it’s not a good thing to separate them. 100% if behaviour management is dealt with then state schools can begin to rival private schools/grammar easily.

Not beyond the first year, when there will be something announced.

After that it'll vanish in to the general exchequer

[cynical]

324 independent schools had left the Teachers' Superannuation Scheme by end of May 2023.

It will be interesting to see what effect this has on recruitment of teachers in private schools v state. Of course many private schools have traditionally opted out, though in my experience many of the Teachers in them didn't realise but soon left for the state sector when they did.

One solution for comprehensives in richer areas being targeted by richer parents is to have schools catchment areas covering a wide range of poorer / richer areas of the city. It certainly worked well in the past in some northern cities opening the eyes for both richer and poorer intake as to the lives of the other. Surely a plus. An education in itself.

Incidentally high praise for the Sutton Trust who do sterling work running free summer schools etc targeting students from deprived backgrounds - especially eg those in Care, those whose parents have not been to Higher Education etc. Taster sessions, Pathways to Law / Medicine, some financial help etc. 13 Unis including Oxbridge are in the scheme. Deadline usually early March.

Wes Streeting, Shadow Health and Social Care, went, if that's a recommendation?

This idea is just part of the race to the bottom we have seen for years and Labour plan to continue.
I don't think people in London and the South East have any idea how dire the outcomes are in other parts of the country and it is those low standards that pushes parents into selective or private systems. In Kensington & Chelsea over half of schools are rated as outstanding whereas in Blackpool only 5% are outstanding Of the top 10 areas for outstanding schools, nine are near London and the other is Trafford which has grammar schools.

I love the theory that supportive parents with high standards would improve standards but I would never be willing to sacrifice my children on that particular altar

I think government should listen to average teachers and take in what we are saying but no they have people on their advisory committee that are headteacher or senior teachers who do not teach, maybe one class a week but they are off timetable!

OP you are assuming that the schools that will shut as a result of the VAT are the academic equivalents of grammars. The most academic schools (especially in cities) will be fine imo.
It's the small nurturing non-selective schools that are probably most at risk if this policy happens.

Absolutely NO grammars in our whole county and the local comps are utterly shit. County next door has LOADS of selective top of the Country grammar schools (with very smug parents on the whole🙈😆)…. You want to make things fair? Let’s go back to grammars in EVERY town or none at all.

Take it from a teacher. They’re worlds apart.

I passed my 11+ in 1966 - no tutoring, no coaching or special preparatiin in school. I went to a great Grammar School - lucky me. My younger sister failed hers and went to an awful Secondary Modern, she truanted for her last year and left at 15 - not so lucky her.
She did O and A levels at college and eventually got a first class degree. A properly funded comprehensive system would have served her much better and wouldn't have done me any harm.

Incidentally, there were a few other girls who failed and were sent by parents who could afford it to a local private school which was clearly not just for the brightest. Another girl's parents moved house into the catchment of a better Secondary Modern. Neither of these options were available to my parents.

@BoohooWoohoo not every parent at selective private is rich. Many are sacrificing a lot to send their kids there and just managing. The very rich won’t be affected by the VAT but many families just won’t be able to afford it anymore. I know many families personally who have sacrificed so much.

Are ‘outstanding’ schools genuinely good, though?

It’s a very flawed measure, because until very recently, the link between low %FSM and high Ofsted grade was distressingly tight, and the recently restarted inspections of Outstanding schools has not yet redressed the balance.

When Ofsted grades reflect raw results - which was the case in most inspection frameworks until vv recently - rather than genuine ‘what does the school do with its intake?’ - then Ofsted grades merely describe the intake, rather than the school.

I live in a wholly selective area. When I used to listen to reading in primary schools, I could guess in the first term of reception which children were going to pass the 11+. It was nothing to do with how clever they appeared. It was based on their shoes, their first names, the brand of their coats and what was in their lunchboxes. It was ENTIRELY class based. People try to pretend otherwise, but they know they are lying to themselves. There are exceptions-like, incidentally, one of my children, but very,very few.

From my experience of schools Outstanding schools are better at getting their paperwork right and not much else.

Our comps. are good but top set experience was that disruptive pupils from lower

sets were often babysat at the back and disrupted top set lessons.

The experience is a leveller but not the way you would want it to be.

I personally do not find this the case, after 20 years of state school teaching experience. All of my team bar one are UPS and several are also part time.

Are there openly selective comprehensive schools in London? I’m not aware of any.

I am in Kent and have had 2 DC go through grammar schools. One of my DDs best friends is from a disadvantaged background FSM. This is unusual in her school.

They both have large sets of friends and the commonality is that every single parent/s are engaged in their education. So you can more or less guarantee that most of your DC’s peers will be engaged and focused on their education. And if we are honest, that makes life easier for us as parents. It’s what makes grammar schools attractive to so many.

Despite having had two go though the system I think it’s appalling. The 75% that go to the secondary moderns generally don’t think the system is great. There are some decent church alternatives but in the main the non grammar options aren’t great.

How is it OK to want the best for the brightest but not the majority?

Never gonna happen. Grammars select for social class not intelligence. I saw an English language practice paper recently for the 11+. The question required the child to know and apply the word cantor, as in a "horse moved from a trot to a cantor". Great for little white girls with money for pony lessons in the countryside. Not so great for little black boys in inner city areas who follow more widely accessible sports and pastimes. Labour would do the country a massive favour if it banned selection in the first year of a five government. No other serious country uses selection.

Well for a start UPS3 is £46k and ECTs now start on nearly £30k so a lot of that difference is starting to even out!

We have super competitive grammars in the area. It hoovers good kids out the state system (perfectly good state schools, I have on DC in one) and just encourages a huge tutoring industry (they start in yr4, £40/hr!) and kids coming on from surrounding counties to take grammar places. It's bonkers.

The money is far better spent making all schools better funding but particularly SEN and special provision schools and funding decent PRUs for the disenfranchised to attend.

Agreed - when my DC sat the 11+ there was a grammar section. Can’t remember if it was part of VR or English. But a massive advantage to the DC from families that use correct grammar in their everyday speech.

Instead of playing to the jealous gallery (those most likely that never had a chance to be educated in Private or Grammar school)These are the type of people where everything's a good idea if it does not effect them or brings others down to their own level.

Hence, if the Labour Party was not driven by ideological stupidity instead decided to use Private Schools. This by sending some of the brightest children to nearby Selective Independents, if there is no local grammar provision. The state would agree to pay the standard £6000 PA funding that most schools get per pupil.

The Labour Party instead would rather the bright child who could benefit from such a 'prehistoric 'system be educated with his less than ideal Peers.