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Original poster

Rishi Sunak axes A-levels and reveals ‘Advanced British Standard’ replacement

74 replies

HarrowToCroydon · 05/10/2023 04:59

Title says it all. Teachers here please opine. Not writing for any article. Parents of 3 children, 2 still in school.

OP posts:
Original poster
HarrowToCroydon · 05/10/2023 05:01

Teachers who have seen "changes" in Government dictated Education policies. Could something like this work for the better?

OP posts:
MissBattleaxe · 05/10/2023 05:04

Can he just arbitrarily make up laws on his own? Isn't he supposed to run this past parliament or are checks and balances a thing of the past?

LadyBitsnBobs · 05/10/2023 05:12

@HarrowToCroydon but it won’t, because they will fail to recruit and train enough competent teachers. They will fail to think through how you motivate the 25% of kids not reaching the minimum maths standard to achieve it in an extra two years of compulsory education. It’s the law of diminishing returns - these kids have been in educational settings that failed them since age of 4 - what is this extra two years going to do that is so radically different they will attain more?

It is, at best, government by wishful thinking again.

prh47bridge · 05/10/2023 08:48

For clarity, this is not an imminent change. The children who have just started primary school will be the first ones to take the new qualifications (if it happens).

Can he just arbitrarily make up laws on his own? Isn't he supposed to run this past parliament or are checks and balances a thing of the past?

A-levels are not enshrined in law. Checks and balances are not a thing of the past. The next stage is consultation.

finepear · 05/10/2023 09:51

I have a dyslexic dc who I had imagined would benefit from dropping english as soon as humanly possible in the current system. Dc is very good at maths and mathsy subjects so I can see being forced to continue to 18 causing problems with their grades. The existing International Bacc often works against dyslexics with a lot of assessment weighted towards essays.

I also liked the fact that a levels have more free time than the IB so you can pursue other things outside of school that help you with university applications. So I'm not sure if this new 'British' qualification will really improve things for the majority or simply refine a minority of students who would do well whatever the system.

I don't personally think the uk system is broken and find it odd in a country where there are universities regularly featuring in top 10 lists around the world can have an education system that terrible, also these same universities don't discriminate between those doing A levels vs other forms of qualifications. I don't believe USA universities do either.

I also wonder where all these extra staff members to teach all these subjects to so many pupils up to 18 will come from...

parietal · 05/10/2023 10:21

This ain't gonna happen. It is a potential idea for 10 years from now. But this government is hurtling towards its expiration date and just throwing out nonsense to distract us.

Whether A levels should be replaced and how is a different and interesting question. But Rishi's plan isn't anything meaningful.

prh47bridge · 05/10/2023 12:52

finepear · 05/10/2023 09:51

I have a dyslexic dc who I had imagined would benefit from dropping english as soon as humanly possible in the current system. Dc is very good at maths and mathsy subjects so I can see being forced to continue to 18 causing problems with their grades. The existing International Bacc often works against dyslexics with a lot of assessment weighted towards essays.

I also liked the fact that a levels have more free time than the IB so you can pursue other things outside of school that help you with university applications. So I'm not sure if this new 'British' qualification will really improve things for the majority or simply refine a minority of students who would do well whatever the system.

I don't personally think the uk system is broken and find it odd in a country where there are universities regularly featuring in top 10 lists around the world can have an education system that terrible, also these same universities don't discriminate between those doing A levels vs other forms of qualifications. I don't believe USA universities do either.

I also wonder where all these extra staff members to teach all these subjects to so many pupils up to 18 will come from...

To pick up on a couple of points...

Sunak did not say the current system is terrible. However, it is true that 16–18-year-olds in England study a narrower range of subjects and spend less time in the classroom than in many other countries. This change would bring us more in line with international standards.

Re the additional teachers, Sunak did announce funding for that. I don't know if the amount he announced is sufficient.

Exasperatednow · 05/10/2023 12:53

This would only happen if he got re elected.

That's a massively big if.

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 05/10/2023 13:05

I'm very relieved that we will be done with education from a personal point of view before this comes in.

I see where he's coming from, but I feel it's from the point of understanding a very narrow type of student. And they're not the dyslexics, or the child who struggles with maths, or the child who has been desperate to take Latin, Ancient History and Art since they watched Indiana Jones aged 10...

We have the IB system and we have the A Level system - they suit different kinds of children. Why not offer choice?

I feel very sorry for teachers if children are forced down this path. I was soooo happy to finish maths - had a bonfire in the garden of all my maths books to celebrate. If I'd been forced into another 2 years I suspect I'd have spent them being as quietly difficult as I could possibly manage.

JustAMinutePleass · 05/10/2023 13:07

Students in private schools already get the option to study an IB instead of A Levels. They are worth more in terms of UCAS points than A Levels because they are considered a more advanced qualification

Unexpecteddrivinginstructor · 05/10/2023 13:14

In a similar position to fairpear, this would disadvantage one of my dc considerably and limit their future opportunities.

I don't know why he doesn't just give incentives to schools to expand the IB in more areas - it is already globally recognised, it will introduce more choice in the system and covers substantially similar ground. There are existing curricula and some teachers experienced to teach. Those who want the IB style broader curriculum can have it, those who prefer A levels can vote with their feet. Over time the stronger offering for students and universities will prevail.

pointythings · 05/10/2023 13:31

If Sunak wants to widen the curriculum, why not just adopt the IB for all UK schools? No need to reinvent the wheel.

Newgirls · 05/10/2023 13:43

This won’t help kids - what will help kids is better paid and supported teachers who will then stay in their careers

good facilities for all kids

music and drama for all who want it

SEN for all those who need it

the rest is just empty and expensive rhetoric

Original poster
HarrowToCroydon · 05/10/2023 14:03

JustAMinutePleass · 05/10/2023 13:07

Students in private schools already get the option to study an IB instead of A Levels. They are worth more in terms of UCAS points than A Levels because they are considered a more advanced qualification

That more UCAS points for IB, compared to A levels, haven't heard this, will look it up.

OP posts:
Original poster
HarrowToCroydon · 05/10/2023 14:08

Exasperatednow · 05/10/2023 12:53

This would only happen if he got re elected.

That's a massively big if.

I get your point, but then during Cameron's time, he was scared of Farage, so much so that he offered BREXIT, yet only 1 seat was won by Farage.

So, does anyone really have a feel for how the public votes.

OP posts:
Original poster
HarrowToCroydon · 05/10/2023 14:08

Newgirls · 05/10/2023 13:43

This won’t help kids - what will help kids is better paid and supported teachers who will then stay in their careers

good facilities for all kids

music and drama for all who want it

SEN for all those who need it

the rest is just empty and expensive rhetoric

"who will then stay in their careers"
This.

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LydiaTomos · 05/10/2023 14:13

We already have the Welsh Baccalaureate here in Wales. I have no idea why he has suggested the name Advanced British Standard since Education is devolved and any new qualifications would be in England only.

londonmummy1966 · 05/10/2023 14:39

I'm not sure why it is necessarily a good thing for pupils post 16 to have more hours of classroom teaching. Maybe its different for STEM subjects but during my A levels (History Latin and Greek) I was expected to spend quite a bit of time reading books on reading lists and preparing essays and a lot of time translating texts in preparation for going over them in lessons. School thought it was good we had self study time and sixth form lessons were timetabled to everyone got at least one free afternoon a week to study at home. TBH it was good preparation for university when I was expected to take a bunch of reading lists and crack out 3 essays a fortnight.

piscofrisco · 05/10/2023 14:47

Won't happen will it. He won't be in power. It just something made up on the back of a fag packet to try to make out like
They've got a vision and detract from the HS2 scrapping.

Original poster
HarrowToCroydon · 05/10/2023 15:37

piscofrisco · 05/10/2023 14:47

Won't happen will it. He won't be in power. It just something made up on the back of a fag packet to try to make out like
They've got a vision and detract from the HS2 scrapping.

"Fag packet", looks like he is having his final smoke, having banned smoking, before jetting off to Santa Monica.

OP posts:
Original poster
HarrowToCroydon · 05/10/2023 15:59

londonmummy1966 · 05/10/2023 14:39

I'm not sure why it is necessarily a good thing for pupils post 16 to have more hours of classroom teaching. Maybe its different for STEM subjects but during my A levels (History Latin and Greek) I was expected to spend quite a bit of time reading books on reading lists and preparing essays and a lot of time translating texts in preparation for going over them in lessons. School thought it was good we had self study time and sixth form lessons were timetabled to everyone got at least one free afternoon a week to study at home. TBH it was good preparation for university when I was expected to take a bunch of reading lists and crack out 3 essays a fortnight.

In the "current world" scenario, with availability of Technology, would Vocational/Apprentice courses be more helpful? (I am not sure I am myself convinced as I write this)

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ImAKnitter · 05/10/2023 16:00

JustAMinutePleass · 05/10/2023 13:07

Students in private schools already get the option to study an IB instead of A Levels. They are worth more in terms of UCAS points than A Levels because they are considered a more advanced qualification

Additionally, 22 state schools offer the IB diploma.

Two of them are within cycling distance of my house, so I’d imagined it was more than that.

I didn’t realise that the IB diploma is worth more UCAS points - do you have a simple link? The ones I’ve found depend on my inputting information I don’t have details for.

I agree that they won’t be able to get the staff. Giving bonuses for teachers in their first few years does nothing to help retention after that.

Slightly worried about IB facilitating more independent work. That sounds like less teaching time, so needing fewer teachers.

TeenDivided · 05/10/2023 16:03

I don't see why vocational and academic have to be combined under one system. BTECs work pretty well from what I have seen (just missed T-Levels, not so sure about them), why mess with them?

OlizraWiteomQua · 05/10/2023 16:08

It will never happen because they won't be in power for much longer.

The idea of keeping kids who hate maths having to do maths anyway, and kids who hate studying english having to do it anyway, is stupid, and impossible given that there's already a huge vacancy rate for maths and english teachers and they are barely achieving half their target numbers of new recruits into the profession to meet current needs.

But it doesn't matter as they will never surely surely have a hope of reelection.

orchardsquare · 05/10/2023 16:08

I don't see what's wrong with the current system either and don't agree with forcing all to study English and maths to 18. Rishi does seem to have a bee in his bonnet about maths.
If some want more subjects, they can always do four or even five A levels/AS levels, or do an EPQ. Most who choose A levels love being able to specialise and drop subjects.