Is anyone else worried about the effect of rising private school fees on state schools?

[BabyIcecream]

Where I live there already aren't enough school places. Three big state secondary's, one is catholic, they are all over subscribed and bursting at the seams using old buildings with not enough funding.

Ive seen reports that at some private schools upto a third of pupils might leave if the fees go up due to VAT.

I'm worried about all these extra pupils needing places, DS already finds his school overcrowded and whilst I don't agree with private education putting extra pupils into the state system is just going to further disadvantage our children.

Unless money raised by increasing private schools costs is going to be used to fund state education? Does anyone know?

@Wolvesart that's great if you have good state schools near you, we don't hence the move to private.
We also wanted a broader and more diverse curriculum which local states don't offer plus subject specialists teaching each subject and not the PE teacher covering physics.

My DC’s school sponsors a state primary school. It also supports the elderly and disabled. Some schools do take their charitable status seriously.

I just don't get this attitude. It's going to make the divide ever bigger. It will also push the parents on the cusp to move to more affluent areas (as they will spend the extra money on houses) and price out the less wealthy.

Don't be worried by alarmists.

@Thisistyresome

Private schools are the cause of inequality in the country yet the likes of Tony Blair sent their kids “state” and some how are worth hundreds of millions in their 30s… Yep it is definitely the private education.

But they didn't go to a bog standard state comp, did they?

You are incorrect.

Firstly, VAT on school fees is a separate issue from the charitable status which some private schools have. Many private schools are not charities but do not have to charge VAT on fees because of the exemption for educational services.

Secondly, charities do have to pay VAT.
https://www.gov.uk/vat-charities/what-qualifies-for-relief

Thirdly, once schools register for VAT, they will be able to reclaim the VAT they pay. For example, some schools have huge capital expenditure which they would be able to reclaim the VAT on if they became VAT registered.

Schools still have to pay for VAT on things like capital building costs etc.

Once they register, they can claim back all the VAT for iirc the previous 4 years. That alone will wipe out the VAT take in initial years as they reclaim on all the sports halls, theatres, science blocks etc etc. Policy will end up a net loss by the time the lawyers and accountants have finished.

Why should it be up to private parents to pay to improve state schools? Lots of wealthy parents chose state schools, why don't you ask them to contribute to improving their current schools? Why is the onus always on private school parents to improve the state sector when we already pay our taxes so are paying for something we don't use.

It’s very patronising to state school parents to claim that these ubermensch private school parents will swoop in and turn around these schools.
I would also like to ask the wealthy parents who use state school why they aren’t improving them, since apparently rich parents is all that is needed.

And around 40% of private schools aren't charities. The charity status is completely different from the VAT issue.

VAT isn't chargeable on anything to do with education (an EU rule if anyone was hoping for Labour going for a rejoin of any sort. If that happened, VAT on education wouldn't even be possible).

Sorry - I posted before reading the whole thread. I see my question has already been asked.

@user1497207191

"But they didn't go to a bog standard state comp, did they?"

+++

Good point maybe we should get rid of the good state comps as well because pupils attending such schools have an unfair advantage over those attending "bog standard state comps" simply because they benefit from being in the right catchment area which are often in higher priced housing areas.

@Barbadossunset and funnily enough you never get a reply to that question! I've asked it numerous times and never got a response.

Not necessarily, for more expensive costs, the capital goods scheme means input VAT reclaims have to be spread over many years, not the year of purchase. There are also exemptions/exceptions for building costs for listed buildings etc which may mean there was no VAT charged on renovations/conversions, etc.

Well said. It's all well and good for people whose kids have the luxury of a good state comp to say we shouldn't have grammars, privates, or religious schools, but that doesn't help all those who are stuck with crap comps does it?

How about Labour "level up" state schools to improve the crap comps and bring them all up to the level of the best state schools, before they start a war against grammars, private and religious ones?

I wouldn't say "wealthy", and private school would have meant serious cut backs, but we probably could have done a cheapish one if we'd really wanted to.

We spend money on lots of extra-curricular, extra tuition and on giving DD the best opportunities and experiences we can. She's into music so it mounts up. We've also been saving so that we could potentially pay uni fees for her upfront if she decided to go.

DD also has SEN, and we supply all the tech and any extra help she needs so that school don't need to. School have never asked for anything, not sure how one would go about 'improving it' even if I was so minded.

So the policy won't "level the playing field" then.

When you look in to where Labour politicians send their children you realise they are not "bog standard" by any stretch of the imagination. They defend with "it is just a good normal school" but the more details you hear that becomes apparent it is not the case at all.

Good point re local schools. Certainly I see that. Although we need to promote excellence in schools through policy and investment it doesn’t seem to happen.

Regarding the PE teacher covering Physics. The private school my DC attended cut corners/costs in other ways. The unqualified, part time TA was also a sports assistant (mostly a sports assistant to be honest), an untrained sports assistant. Re Curriculum: the prep school curriculum was well stale at the school my DC attended. There were kids in the sixth form of the feeder school who had done the same things 3 headmasters earlier. Some parents had reused craft projects their older DC’s did - risky but quite amusing. The one thing I found most annoying was the headmaster who came when our DC was in Yr 2 renamed various projects when the science block was remodelled and then said he’d started the City’s only Engineering curriculum. Trumpeting a go karting project begun by the previous head.

Listed building repairs/renovations are not VAT exempt. There's a current campaign to bring that about.

The law regarding charitable status is a little more complicated than a “quick google” and a sentence from a dictionary.

I’ve added the link from the HMRC/Charity Commission to help you.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/what-makes-a-charity-cc4/what-makes-a-charity-cc4

As an aside, the charity argument is totally separate from the VAT argument. Plenty of schools are not charities at the moment but don’t have to charge VAT on fees because of the educational exemption.

@Wolvesart again it depends on your own personal experience. DDs school did a complete curriculum overhaul a few years ago and is really innovative and engaging. They aren't limited to choosing EITHER geography OR history at GCSE because they don't have enough teachers or the only choice is Spanish as a MFL as is the case in our local state secondary.

State schools are massively failing my children and many thousands of other children. SEN support is a major battle and they are just being treated as naughty, instead of children in an environment that is not meeting their needs. If I could pay for a private school that had SEN support I would in a heartbeat and don't begrudge those that can. Putting more children back into unsuitable schools hardly seems like progress. Private doesn't just cover hothouses like Eaton, it is all alternative provision.

Re school buildings - in the prep my DC went to the Yrs3 and 4 building was dreadful. The classrooms had been subdivided. His Yr 3 one had the teacher’s desk as a little thing attached to the wall in the corner with a perching stool attached. The Yr 4 one was like a broom cupboard with too many kids round each table.

Wolvesart why did you send your children to private school if you think they’re so awful?

Choose carefully because only certain independent schools do SEN adequately. We knew someone who left ours because they were being asked to pay for a TA