Is anyone else worried about the effect of rising private school fees on state schools?

[BabyIcecream]

Where I live there already aren't enough school places. Three big state secondary's, one is catholic, they are all over subscribed and bursting at the seams using old buildings with not enough funding.

Ive seen reports that at some private schools upto a third of pupils might leave if the fees go up due to VAT.

I'm worried about all these extra pupils needing places, DS already finds his school overcrowded and whilst I don't agree with private education putting extra pupils into the state system is just going to further disadvantage our children.

Unless money raised by increasing private schools costs is going to be used to fund state education? Does anyone know?

Umm what percentage of the population of North Korea do you think belong to the leader class?

What an utterly stupid comment. Do you not understand that no parent is going to put their kids in state schools and then give the money that would have gone on school fees to the new school??!! They’ll just hire tutors.

@Teddleshon - Umm. What do you think counts as economic inequality? It seems to me this country is doing a very good job of accelerating itself towards a position where a minuscule number of people hold almost all the wealth - just like North Korea. Do you think that counts as increasing equality? Was society more equal in the Middle Ages, in your mind, because the vast majority were peasants?

i was referring to a technical definition of the distribution of income. It is a command economy with free education and free healthcare and income centrally controlled.

Unsurprisingly I am hardly defending North Korea!

@Teddleshon - yes, but your claim still isn’t borne out by anything I can find in an internet search. It’s like claiming the USSR had everyone earning the same income and having the same privileges - it wasn’t actually true. What is true about North Korea, heaven only knows, because they aren’t exactly known for their openness.

There wasn’t even equal access to schools in the USSR.

It is somewhat disingenuous to compare the behaviour and practices of secretive communist states that have been economically isolated from and sanctioned by most of the rest of the world, with any attempts to foster a less unequal society in the UK, imvho.

It was simply a lighthearted comment in response to a post which suggested that unless we wanted to live in a communist country people need to accept different levels of income.

Personally I would be happy to see the end of private schools.

It's because when the kids from the richer families don't go to the local state schools the kids at the state schools do worse... perhaps due to lots of factors like - less money can be raised by the PTA, less aspirations/role models, less opportunities to meet and be inspired by successful rich people, less powerful people to donate resources to school or put pressure on bad teaching or policies, less academic role models at the school etc

Yes it reminds me of brexit and the fake promises that the money would go to the nhs

I think many parents will choose to keep the kids in the school they are in if possible and schools may phase in the higher fees. But it will definitely impact next years year 7 and the house prices near the top state schools!

Except the child that doesn't go to the private school, they will no longer have that advantage of the great education and social contacts.

The way I see it is, that once the sharp elbowed parents are in the state system, they’ll start to agitate the government to improve things , which will be better for all the students.

Do you pay the fees yourself or does the council? If the council it shouldn't impact you?

I’d say this is doubtful. Plenty of sharp elbowed parents here. They don’t agitate the gov. More relieved that dc are in schools with peers and parents who make schools better

My child goes to a private school in an Outstanding State school area. It’s the same type of parents in both schools - the rich people who can’t afford primary just tutor their kids into the private’s secondary & are extremely active in the private’s friends association but don’t care about the state school’s PTA.

If the council pays the fees it won't necessarily impact her immediately, but it will certainly impact others like her very quickly. The pot is limited. Perhaps it means they can only pay for 20 children rather than 25 or whatever. Those 5 who missed out will presumably be negatively impacted (the bar is already really high for anyone needing to access this kind of provision).

Most the families I know are making moves to earn more money to cover vat or use legal tax avoidance schemes to reduce the impact. Eg by making kids shareholders in grandparents’ companies, doctors / dentists increasing private consultation fees and reducing their NHS availability to the minimum , housewives returning to work either properly or to reduce the tax their partner’s pay in their business.

I’m looking for higher paid work personally - which means we might move closer to the private school to make school runs easier but to afford that I’d need to rent out my existing home. A lot of the parents at son’s private school are thinking of doing this - so this may mean the existing ‘Outstanding’ state school area may start becoming a sea of short term lets.

But why should they be banned, what’s the difference between spending your hard earned cash on private education, or paying a premium on property near the best schools and hiring private tutors for many subjects, what exactly is the difference ?
Nurseries and Scholarships will be the first to go, also most independents do put something back into the community as well hosting sporting events and community events locally due to their charitable status, that will all probably stop.
Universities ? Would they have to be charging tax on top of tuition fees as well ? If not, why not ?
Now an interesting question : what would those posters who, don’t agree with private schools and want independent schools closed down do, if for example, their kids were failing miserably at a under preforming overcrowded school and they suddenly got an inheritance….or won the lottery, would you stay put ? Or would you look up to best school you could possibly afford or move to a better more expensive area to access the better performing state schools….honestly, what would you do ? I doubt if many of you would stay put ?

@Unexpectedlysinglemum Dd’s school fees come out of income, we are incredibly lucky in having that choice, I know. Many others like us either haven’t applied or avoid EHCP’s all together and therefore they will pay this increase if or when it happens.

For us there’ll be no other option but to fight our local authority to cover school fees in their entirety. That’s a little over 300k worth of school fees for both DD’s over the next 8 years, not to mention the associated legal fees and other costs per case. Now times that by the hundreds of families like mine who now have a vested interest to pursue an EHCP because school fees are no longer manageable.

@SpaceRaiders - does the funding for EHCP come out of the same budget as for all schools in a local authority?
https://educationhub.blog.gov.uk/2021/10/29/how-does-school-funding-work-and-how-does-the-budget-affect-it/

Labour already said that specialist SEN schools will be exempt from VAT but what about SEN kids in other types of independent education funded by the Council?

It is all really confusing. Government currently spend double the amount on Health around 178 billion than on Education (80 billion roughly) but universities suffering massively post Brexit and due to the uni cap is in those figures, I think. European Research funding being cut is costing them dearly and academics are leaving top institutions in droves.

I fundamentally disagree with the policy of not educating children properly and fully up to the age of 16 at least. We are screwed in the West - ageing populations costing a bomb in pensions and health, many sitting on lots of wealth that could be used to contribute. If we don’t educate the young properly, where will it leave us? Future productivity being greatly impacted if we don’t educate properly. The problem is the political system being so short termist and just out for votes for themselves and placating the elderly who vote. They are all too scared to address the real problems. Old people as a group are far richer than young people and if young people have no money they won’t have kids either. So our government just want to keep importing young working people from developing countries. Is that the actual strategy?!

@Araminta1003 I don’t know enough to comment how the LA allocates their budgets.

What I do know, is EHCP’s especially here in the south east are becoming increasing harder to secure. Its the norm to instruct a barrister and pay circa 25k in legal fees just to secure funding. It’s maddening that parents are even forced into this position!

We have a massive problem with a lack of specialist school places for disabled children. And as it’s stands, we have either state mainstream or specialist provision for the highest need disabled children. There are no state settings that sit in between these provisions and this is where the private sector fills the gap and does so well.

Are we saying that in order to level the playing field for every child, we’ll effectively throw disabled children who are already vastly disadvantaged, under the bus? It’s a badly thought out policy and I have little trust in Labour or anyone else for that matter not to mess up an already failing system.

@PoseasRadicalActuallyMisogynistic

What does agitating for change by private school parents actually mean?

Voting differently? The numbers of parents/kids aren't big enough to make a difference

Hassling overworked state school teachers? Not likely to create meaningful change.

Giving money to the school? No one I know who has kids in the state system then moved to the private system (around 50-70%) of parents at my kids prep has done this. Far more likely to go on tutoring/activities.

I think the VAT idea is a bad one because unintended consequences will mean that it didn't raise the money expected and is the thin end of the wedge (childcare, tuition etc). But I doubt it will cause a huge exodus from the sector. And it won't provide any significant benefit to those kids in poor quality state schools.

I think the VAT idea is a bad one because unintended consequences will mean that it didn't raise the money expected and is the thin end of the wedge (childcare, tuition etc).

I’m sure Labour know this but don’t care as it’s a class war act which will please many on the left. It’s the equivalent of Blair’s hunting ban: if Blair and his party actually cared about cruelty to animals then they would’ve banned shooting and fishing and worst of all, factory farming in which I include the wicked practice of salmon farming.

They'll continue to do what they were already doing: get the most "bang for the buck" to improve their children's educations. If they think that they'll have the greatest impact by spending their resources (money, time, connections, etc.) lobbying the government to improve the system for all 9 million school children, that's what they will do. If they think that they'll have the greatest impact by focusing their resources on their own DC, perhaps by

• securing a place at a "better" state school, whether by moving house, getting religion, or doing more preparation for grammar schools
• paying for private tutors
• trying to improve the specific schools where they congregate

that's what they will do. They won't go out of their way to disadvantage other children; that would be a waste of resources. But, if that's a side effect of helping their own DC, they won't let that stop them.