Is anyone else worried about the effect of rising private school fees on state schools?

[BabyIcecream]

Where I live there already aren't enough school places. Three big state secondary's, one is catholic, they are all over subscribed and bursting at the seams using old buildings with not enough funding.

Ive seen reports that at some private schools upto a third of pupils might leave if the fees go up due to VAT.

I'm worried about all these extra pupils needing places, DS already finds his school overcrowded and whilst I don't agree with private education putting extra pupils into the state system is just going to further disadvantage our children.

Unless money raised by increasing private schools costs is going to be used to fund state education? Does anyone know?

@morechocolateneededtoday spot on.

Well mine has severe SEN so would have been deeply unhappy in a grammar school, but yes, that is the downside of having grammars. However there's no denying that they are extremely popular and sought after... hence why parents don't leave it to chance and the state primary to prep for them.

My personal view is that a really good, very large comprehensive is the best option all round. Then you have enough kids to have a 'grammar' set, enough kids to have a cohort for every course option, and enough kids that everyone finds their tribe.

That's fine in big cities, but doesn't work so well in rural Devon or small towns unless parents are happy to have children travel huge distances.

We have an excellent comprehensive and it works well for Dc at all levels. They can support a Cambridge entrant to the less academic end

But it’s house prices that do a lot of the lifting. Very motivated parents who pay that way not fees

Plus a good mix as London so a range of social housing I assume or cheaper accommodation

Would you agree with imposing VAT on the fees of those 4 private tutors?

This is interesting, thank you.

Where is the disconnect in this situation in your opinion? Are our primaries failing to adequately prepare our children for secondary schools, or is the 11+ off the mark in what it’s testing?

Genuinely interested btw, I feel like education is in tatters and it’s hard to understand what (apart from adequate funding) will help to address the problem.

“I get irritated by the parents that put their kids through private prep so that they then take up most of the grammar school places”

“I think that more private school children joining local state schools could help to improve standards for all children”

On one hand you say that you disagree with moving from private to state at 11, but then you say that it would be good if they moved from private to state.

This is so frustrating, because it’s such an easy fix.

Absolutely not. We would probably have to drop one of them if that happened.

I am worried about the 'thin end of the wedge' enough that I will be voting accordingly.

I totally agree. Tutors etc should not have to charge VAT. VAT on private education is the thin end of the wedge and would lead to unintended consequences. Why on earth any government would want to hinder a decent education in whatever form is a mystery to me.

@PixiePirate

Where is the disconnect in this situation in your opinion? Are our primaries failing to adequately prepare our children for secondary schools, or is the 11+ off the mark in what it’s testing?

The 11+ is fundamentally the same standard/level as it was 50 years ago. The primary curriculum has been dumbed down and watered down. That's why they've not learned the content of the 11+ by the time they sit it (start of year 6), as a lot of the 11+ content is taught in year 6 (though not all).

Because they're playing to the "politics of envy" voters who want equality, even if that means everyone on an equally lower level, i.e. a race to the bottom is fine as long as everyone is at that lower level.

Yes a lot pf anti-private posters on here are the ones who tutor for 11+. Wonder how they will feel if they have to pay VAT on top of the hourly rate? Why wouldn't Labour force VAT on private tutors if it wants VAT on private schools?

As you've noticed - it is a disconnect between the two. The 11 plus does not test the primary curriculum that will have been covered by the date of the exam - it tests what they are about to over over the coming months plus more. The critical thinking aspect of the 11 plus is not covered in state primary education to the best of my knowledge (my children are in a prep school so I could be mistaken but when I did the research before they started, I was told it is not covered).

And from what I could tell when I looked at primary schools, many were not able to stretch the brightest to achieve their potential due to lack of resources and restrictions on what/how they teach. I was not impressed with the curriculum for the older years and felt teachers were very restricted.

Agree and just like Brexit the rich will be unaffected or better off and the less rich will suffer. No bursaries for the less well off, fees too expensive for lower middle classes. Those people will still be able to afford tutors and houses in better areas though which will mean they take more places at the grammars and nicer comps. Of all the things parents can spend money on educating their kids is surely a good use of money and they’re still paying the same amount of tax as if they were taking a state school place. I think independents got a boost from the shit show that was covid in many state schools but going forward they’ll be less attractive

I’m sure there are plenty of private tutors who earn below the VAT threshold.

Then there are the parents who tutor their own children.

They about keep the best schools whether private or state and give vouchers to everyone like they do with nursery schools so you choose where you want your children to go.

What % of children count as the “brightest”? As with wealth, there is a big gap between the tiny number genuinely at the very top and the rest. The bottom of the top 25% may seem rather dim to the absolute “brightest,” so it’s all relative. Who are grammar schools really supposed to be catering for?

Unless people wish for a communist state and to date there has not been a communist regime anyone would choose to live under, people have to accept that people will have different levels of wealth. They will choose to spend that wealth on many things, one of which being their dc. Be it private school, private tutors or moving into the expensive catchment area of the best schools, it is not possible to prevent people spending their money

Are our primaries failing to adequately prepare our children for secondary schools, or is the 11+ off the mark in what it’s testing?

@PixiePirate where I live (and this may well vary from area to area), the primary schools aren't allowed to prepare children for the 11+. The private prep schools aren't bound by the same strictures so a lot of parents pay for primary education in the hope that the extra prep will enable their DCs to get into grammar schools.

Plus, as PPs have mentioned, DCs won't be familiar with the style of 11+ questions unless they have seen past papers.

@pantypant it is generally accepted that the most equal society on earth is ….. North Korea

Quite

@Teddleshon - eh? Where did you get that from? Besides the fact data on North Korea is very hard to obtain, it is patently obvious that the leadership of North Korea are far from starving or lacking in money to fund vanity projects. When I look up North Korea, I find plenty of articles stating it is one of the economically most unequal countries in the world, if not the most unequal. Countries named as the most economically equal come up as places like Sweden, not North Korea.

What’s more, Kim Jong Un went to school in Switzerland, not North Korea with his compatriots.

Maybe North Korea has more in common with the UK than we thought - they too don’t like their leaders to be state educated.