Is anyone else worried about the effect of rising private school fees on state schools?

[BabyIcecream]

Where I live there already aren't enough school places. Three big state secondary's, one is catholic, they are all over subscribed and bursting at the seams using old buildings with not enough funding.

Ive seen reports that at some private schools upto a third of pupils might leave if the fees go up due to VAT.

I'm worried about all these extra pupils needing places, DS already finds his school overcrowded and whilst I don't agree with private education putting extra pupils into the state system is just going to further disadvantage our children.

Unless money raised by increasing private schools costs is going to be used to fund state education? Does anyone know?

“judging by the statistics, Cambridge uni is quite happy to admit a disproportionate amount of local kids too

Somehow I think the disproportionality may be due more to "kids of [local] academics" than just "local kids".”

Kids who have a parent who went to Oxbridge or is an academic at either Oxbridge or other Russell group uni, are at a huge advantage. It is probably more of an advantage than going to even the most selective private school.

@Grandjany oh really, I didn't know that.

My DH is always saying 'you're a shite...... for shore eyes'. I think I need to LTB.

@Grandjany "Do you know that Sean Connery didn’t go to school. He just went to his local library and read every book he could find."

Shame he didn't read some about violence against women.....

@Blankscreen

so the cost of transport can come out of the VAT money they will raise.

That sounds like the Diane Abbott school of economics where the Labour party spend the same money several times! So the VAT money now has to fund travel costs for all, as well as more classrooms and more teachers to absorb the kids who have to leave their private schools. So that's the same VAT money spent three times. We're back to Labour's magic money trees aren't we?

All the libraries near me shut because they weren’t being funded. What we need is a government who actually gives a shit about eduction.

This.

A cynic might say that Labour can only afford to have this policy because birth rates have fallen in the last 10 years or so, which means there are going to be spare places in the state school system. Although they may not be evenly distributed of course as the OP shows.

To be honest, I am quite happy to become a shitty insignificant island where we stop striving to matter much in world politics, where our kids chill and go to the local school and we all just take a bit more of a back seat in general world ambition/pushing ourselves and our kids. Bring it on! We might all become a lot happier. AI can clean our hospitals in due course and supermarket workers are being replaced by automatic tills largely anyway.
We should all get to choose when to die peacefully rather than lingering in care homes as well with no say. F..k GCSEs, A levels and all that pressure anyway. And I am pretty sure most private school teachers can get good jobs in the civil service, they will fit right in.
As for good teachers, the Labour Government needs to make sure all the curriculum is online as well so that those who want to learn can if they have crappy teachers that year going through a mental breakdown.
And start building some proper houses Singapore style for all. And all people to get paid a fair wage but also pay some actual tax. So everyone knows what paying actual tax feels like. And that includes all the self employed - we do need some proper surveillance there. HMRC better get their act together. Private school teachers re-employed into HMRC, another great idea.

Perkynuts: Something perhaps you don’t know might open your eyes a little, although I could be wasting my words: My mother left school at 16 and started her own sewing business at home living in a tiny bungalow with her parents. She lived with them until she was 32. She saved. She prospered. It was nothing to do with her school, she taught herself to sew. She was industrious, not ever counting the hours she worked. She took on risks and responsibilities. People like that don’t blame anyone else but themselves for their situation.

Which isn't Labour. Labour shut our local library in around 2008! Both main parties are as bad as each other.

“All the libraries near me shut because they weren’t being funded.”

There is now a library app - anyone who has tech access can download the books they want to read for free. So if you or your kids are motivated to read, it is available, if you can afford electricity and have wi-fi.
Library closures are more of an issue for things like baby sing time, unemployed people who need to print stuff off and the elderly who go in for a chat. And for primary schools - my DC used to love going once a term on a little walk with their teacher and often writers would come in to read to them.

In anddition, our library is fine, because we live in London. In fact, things are better locally in the last 15 years. We now have cafes, Deli style butchers, small thriving businesses because loads of people work from home and spend locally. And we are just fine, lots of untaxed paper cash in our house and like I said, we are going to benefit even more from this Labour policy because we are in catchment for great state schools. And more and more people are going to try and move here. But it is really really difficult to get a cleaner, thank God for the Robot vacuum. It think it is quite good for me to clean my own house anyway. Makes things more real than lawyering all the time. Or wasting time on Mumsnet or being a pushy mum.

@Araminta1003

As for good teachers, the Labour Government needs to make sure all the curriculum is online as well so that those who want to learn can if they have crappy teachers that year going through a mental breakdown.

Yes, yes and more yes. That would really be a vote winner for Labour if they started coming up with proposals that could actually improve things, rather than dragging everything down in the name of equality.

Pupils having access to a centralised database of resources, like text books, worksheets, revision guides, past exam questions, etc., linked directly to the curriculum and exam content would be a game changer for kids who are struggling at school for whatever reason, whether it's bullying, teacher problems, or whatever.

This is exactly what Labour needs to be doing. I.e. coming up with ideas and initiatives to make things better, rather than the politics of envy to make things worse for the people they hate!

The other edge to this is that if your fees are £2k the extra £400 needs to come from somewhere.

There will be lots of parents looking at their bills and thinking what can we cut back on. Pulling the kids out of school half way through will be an absolute last resort.

Having spoken to a few it will certainly be their cleaner, dog walker gardener etc. not renewing the car.

Didums I hear you scream, how will the cope. Of course they will but the point is that the people who are affected by the cut backs will feel the pain.

Cool. Have you considered times and policies have changed since 2008? We’re in 2023 now in case you didn’t know.

So? This isn't going to work for everyone. Race to the bottom in the UK. People clapping their hands in delight are just jealous.

Private schools existed long before free state schools were introduced.

The disruptive children will still.be there in the same .numbers (if not more as not all children who attend private school are not disruptive!). Once the disruptive children children have been assisted there will simply be more children for staff to spread themselves around. Lowering percentage doesn't improve the situation unless the total number is the same. The total number will not stay the same...it will increase. Same resources, thinner spread.

According to the Times since 2000 average wages have risen by 17%.
Boarding schools fees have risen on average by 66%.
Day school fees have risen on average by 77%.

And yet somehow the numbers of children attending private schools have remained broadly the same (or increased) since the 1960s. Where was the great exodus then?

@Notonthestairs - According to the Times since 2000 average wages have risen by 17%.

And how are “average” wages anything to do with top earners and private schools?

And how much have largely untaxed house prices risen since 2000?

Our school day is 8am - 6pm. But they can stay till 9pm if not boarding that night.
Holidays are longer though.

That's because people who are not worrying about having no food, mental health issues, ill-health, and all the other issues associated with poverty, are more likely to have the time and skills to contribute to school improvement

I just don't see how this can happen. What exactly would these ex-private parents be doing? How exactly am I going to use my skills and time to improve the school? I won't be joining the PTA, I won't be going in to do anything. What I will be doing is getting my kid a tutor and ferrying them round to extra curricular non school stuff.

Also, is it possible that the reverse may happen? For example, at the end of year 6, there is always a cohort of DC who leave prep and go to state. In my class of 20, 5 went to my local state school. Every one of them was in the top set for maths in year 7, despite not sitting SATS. If I was to move to a state school, I'm pretty sure my 2 would be in the top sets. That means some other children would miss out and others being pushed further down in sets.

How is this raising standards?

Let me generalise.

If your kid was getting a raw deal or being bullied, you would contact the school to sort it out. You are articulate and have the confidence to do so.

So standards rise.

State schools are funded per capita. They want to keep families like yours. So if you are unhappy and threaten to move your children, they don't want that. So they address the issues.

So standards rise.

The hundreds of threads on this site 'AIBU to contant the school about.....' are testament to that.

And in answer to your setting query, if a secondary school has a high attaining cohort, they might have 2 equal top sets.

There are in fact many very bright children already in the state sector who do very well indeed.

@perkynuts you are spectacularly missing the point that I keep on making.
Private parents won't put their kids in state schools where standards need to rise. They will put them in schools which are already outstanding, have good facilities and excellent outcomes.
This means that poorer kids will be pushed into the lowest performing schools.

“perkynuts · Today 15:22

And in answer to your setting query, if a secondary school has a high attaining cohort, they might have 2 equal top sets.

There are in fact many very bright children already in the state sector who do very well indeed.”

Yes, but only if there are enough of that type of child attending a school already so they have a peer group. So how will the government ensure that happens? It is the inequality between state schools that is the real issue for the 93% of kids attending state school (overall percentage, massively simplified) that nobody in government wants to talk about or address.

State primary No 1 - deprived catchment, KS1, 30 kids in a class, 7 severe additional needs, 10 with single parent households on the breadline who don’t support homework (but 1 very bright), 2 very bright kids from supportive household, 11 average kids going to achieve expectation - half from supportive households. Swearing at the school gates, smoking, Pjs, the works, social services involvement, some kids don’t eat breakfast, dirty clothes etc. 2 parental bereavements already

State primary No 2 - middle class catchment, 2 kids with ADHD with private diagnosis and school already managed to get a TA to support both 1:2, 15 kids average achievement but happy well behaved well adjusted kids, 13 kids very bright high achievers. Most parents supportive, PTA/bake for the school fair/fill in the reading log daily types.
Teacher 1 outstanding, gives it her all. Teacher 2 also very good.

The pushy engaged parent is going to choose school 2. Regardless of how good the head comes across or how good the teachers are. The same applies to secondary schools.

You can stamp your feet as much as you want, even the most leftie parent is going to choose School No 2. Because we all know it starts at home. And yes, this is probably also why people pay up for private schools. But to pretend it does not happen in the state sector is a complete lie. And if we are dishonest, we cannot actually improve the state sector. And we have a real problem at the moment. And tech can actually help us and so can supporting and training teachers and making sure outside services support children better as well.

I really spectacularly am not.

Standards can always rise at all schools. Even outstanding ones, which, by the way, might be a very old rating.

And you might well find that those schools are full, or there are none in your area, as outstanding ratings are not that common. So if you cannot afford private schools, unless you home-school then you may well have no choice but to take a place at a non-outstanding school.