Is anyone else worried about the effect of rising private school fees on state schools?

[BabyIcecream]

Where I live there already aren't enough school places. Three big state secondary's, one is catholic, they are all over subscribed and bursting at the seams using old buildings with not enough funding.

Ive seen reports that at some private schools upto a third of pupils might leave if the fees go up due to VAT.

I'm worried about all these extra pupils needing places, DS already finds his school overcrowded and whilst I don't agree with private education putting extra pupils into the state system is just going to further disadvantage our children.

Unless money raised by increasing private schools costs is going to be used to fund state education? Does anyone know?

@perkynuts of course there are if you are lucky to live near them. We don't so we would move house to get DD into a good one. We would then pay for a tutor, we wouldn't send DD to either of our current local state schools.

@Araminta1003

Many NHS consultants are working in the private sector on the side to top up their miserable wages

I was with you until you suggested that consultants are on "miserable wages"!

“In fact, there are many excellent comprehensive schools with very diverse demographics, where children do very well indeed. Some even go to Russell Group universities..... even Oxbridge!”

All of us commenting on this post are “educationally motivated” and we are all hypocrites.
There are a ton of people at DC’s grammar who hate private schools and would never have done “private” and are all for the 20 VAT on private schools. Some of them are forgetting that it is going to be even more competitive for their younger DC.
Then I also know quite a few locals who hate the grammar and hate private who moved into catchment of the best co-ed comp because they really want their DC to have a community and a childhood and single sex is just so last century and most of them are the arty farty middle class creative types.
Then there are those who are hard working professional highly educated economic migrants at the local private schools from places like India and China who are paying up because they really feel culturally and deeply that they need to do that for their kids. And in their opinion, investing in Education is always right. Even if they get fleeced by the private school.

A system where every child would be fully supported, have really happy and supported excellent teachers in a nice school environment and a lovely diverse atmosphere that reflects UK society as a whole - would that not be great?
We are not going to get there by taxing private school 20 per cent VAT. We are only going to get there by making sure all state schools are at that standard by investing heavily in them and in particular, in those kids who need it the most who don’t get it at home. The middle class kids described above are all going to be fine anyway, their parents ensure that.

@perkynuts

The tired comparison with private healthcare is fallacious. Private healthcare does not perpetuate and entrench lifelong inequality in the same way. VAT on fees is not only about raising the money, it is also about addressing that inequality.

Government, the judiciary, the legal profession, elite sport and so on are not populated by people simply because they had their tonsils out in a BUPA hospital.

++++

Firstly avoiding a premature death by having quicker access to medical care from the private sector health care does more to improve your "lifelong" success than a private education ever will.

Secondly as you point out it's not just about raising additional tax revenue (which is minimal) but addressing inequality. So really it's about the politics of envy and preventing someone else having what you can't afford to have. If so why not apply this to housing or cars or holidays etc?

We all know that. But there are also far too many crap comps where far fewer kids do well and far fewer to go "any" uni, let alone RG ones. We need to "level up" the quality of state comps and forcing a few private kids into state schools won't do that!

(Point of order though, there are now some non RG Unis doing exceptionally well in Uni league tables, some even in the top 10!).

user1497207191 · Today 10:54

@Araminta1003

Many NHS consultants are working in the private sector on the side to top up their miserable wages

“I was with you until you suggested that consultants are on "miserable wages"!”

The wage is not good compared to comparable middle class jobs in tech, law and banking - for which such persons have the required brain power and would have had the required skill at the point when they chose their professions. It is a very hard job requiring lots of sacrifice and mental health energy etc. - far more than the former desk based jobs.

@1dayatatime

So really it's about the politics of envy and preventing someone else having what you can't afford to have. If so why not apply this to housing or cars or holidays etc?

Labour would if they could - I'm sure some of them have wet dreams about doing just that! They want equality, so basically that means lower standards for everyone!

I'm surprised that your school has been that specific on their bursary plans in case VAT is introduced. Did they indicate whether they will stop providing bursaries for current students or only stop offering them to future students?

At the risk of repeating myself: because they don't entrench privilege and inequality on anywhere near the same scale in a way that affects society as a whole in the long term. Which is why everyone's anecdotes and personal circumstances may be interesting examples but that's all they are.

Children are at school every day from 4-18, roughly. They are not having private healthcare, holidays and expensive cars every day for 16 years.

It is not the politics of envy.

The Labour Party is trying to do something about entrenched inequality and improve opportunities for everyone.

@user149799568 they will stop new bursaries and taper existing ones. In response to parents asking what their strategy will be

“The Labour Party is trying to do something about entrenched inequality and improve opportunities for everyone.”

As a Labour voter, I do believe that. However, I disagree that it will lead to that. Because until now some middle class families will have stayed in poorer areas and paid up. Whereas now, they will just move so the elitism will become worse. Because the educationally motivated middle class parent, whatever party they vote for, will still always put their own DC first. Mostly, in a hypocritical manner.

Look at this article today - it isn’t about schools and state school education. It us about housing, NHS, extra support failures, poverty, mental health that means children do not fulfil their potential. Halving the amount of DC in private schools in England is not going to change that.

And on that note, will there be VAT on school fees in Scotland and Wales?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-66917186

@twistyizzy - what does “taper”
existing bursaries mean? If someone has it in writing they get 90 per cent off fees then surely they keep 90 per cent off the full fees. But will up to 20 per cent vat become payable on those full fees?! And if so, who pays that element. I get that any bursary awards given now or in the last couple of years may have considered VAT but probably not before that. I guess so e bursary students will be back in the state sector for sixth form.

I say it again unless labour scrap state grammar schools, faith schools and catchment areas the inequality will continue.

Brighton allocate places on a lottery basis so may be that should be introduced across the board.

£2k plus a month on top of your mortgage can go a long way to buying a house in the best catchment area.

You only need to look at the house prices around sevenoaks to see how this will play out.

judging by the statistics, Cambridge uni is quite happy to admit a disproportionate amount of local kids too

Somehow I think the disproportionality may be due more to "kids of [local] academics" than just "local kids".

@perkynuts

"It is not the politics of envy.

The Labour Party is trying to do something about entrenched inequality and improve opportunities for everyone."

+++

OK so we have clarified that it's not to do with raising tax revenues (which is minimal anyway) and all to do with entrenched inequality.

If you really wanted to do something about social mobility then you would have inheritance tax payable on all estates with no threshold. This prevents wealth being passed from one generation to the next. Next you would expand grammar schools and selective entry so that all bright kids regardless of their background (and ability to pay 11 plus tuition fees) could get a quality education- although this will mean other less bright kids miss out. Or how about council sponsored places in private schools?

The harsh reality is that there will always be good schools and bad schools (state, grammar or private) and inequality where some children have access to better education than others. By getting rid of or making access more difficult to the good schools just means that you are levelling down to lower but more equal denominator.

This is absolutely about the politics of envy - it's not fair that someone has something better than me so I want to take away their good thing so that we are both on the equal but lower level.

The Labour Party is trying to do something about entrenched inequality and improve opportunities for everyone.

It won’t affect the very rich who are the people Labour disliked the most.

That only works in larger towns/cities etc where there are several schools within relatively short travelling distance of peoples' homes.

In lots of places, a town will only have one school, some smaller towns won't even have one. Then if you apply a "lottery", you'll have kids travelling longer distances to a random school in a different town, and leading on from that is that if the school choice is "imposed", then subsidised/free transport has to be provided which will have to be paid for by the taxpayer!

At present, lots of kids will go to schools on bus/train routes, or close to where a parent works so can get a lift - so choice of school is partly based on transport options. If you impose a lottery, you take away that choice.

Lottery systems will only work in cities and bigger towns.

This. Because we don’t live within the catchment of a grammar school, we have no choice but to pay private school fees if we want an academically selective school. The Labour Party think that it’s fair to tax me on fees because I don’t happen to live within the catchment of an academically selective state school. How is that “fair”? The inequality in education runs far deeper than a small percentage of children at fee paying schools.

This is precisely why this proposed policy is nothing more than a populist policy stemming from the politics of envy. If they really wanted to sort inequality, there is lots they could do.

But as other have said its not about raising revenue it's about equality and fairness, so the cost of transport can come out of the VAT money they will raise.
In my area where there is a scramble for places every year there is no option of choosing a school that is convenient for lifts etc.
Some children get taken past their nearest school because it's full and get sent to one further away.

The house prices near the best school are far higher than the school that no one wants.

Correct. Those who it will affect are the middle classes who make sacrifices and who have worked extremely hard to be in the position to afford the fees - those parents who often have been through the comprehensive system themselves but who are striving to do the best by their children.

It won’t affect the richest. The Labour Party harp on about social mobility. The reality is that those who families who have worked their way out of challenging backgrounds become hated by the Labour Party as soon as they do well for themselves.

I completely agree. What this country needs to focus on is rewarding those who work hard, not penalising them!

@Grandjany like cleaners and supermarket workers you mean?

Yes absolutely. We all can make our contributions

Do you know that Sean Connery didn’t go to school. He just went to his local library and read every book he could find. School isn’t the only answer, application and ability count a lot!

It won’t affect the richest. The Labour Party harp on about social mobility. The reality is that those who families who have worked their way out of challenging backgrounds become hated by the Labour Party as soon as they do well for themselves.

This. It is nothing but the politics of envy and petty point scoring.