Is the school ripping us off? (long- sorry)

[april68]

DD's, 11 and 14, attend a local indpendent school. Over recent years there has been an increasing intake of overseas pupils, especially chinese, hong kong etc. That's fine; seems to be a fairly general thing in independent schools these days. Last year a big deal was made about a mandarin teacher starting at the school, about how mandarin was going to be the language of business in the future etc and last sept the mandarin teacher was duly appointed. Well, as far as I can see, its all a load of hype. DD1 (14) gets 3 mandarin lessons a week and DD2 who is in the prep dept gets 1 at the moment. However, when i ask them about the lessons, its clear that although they've learned a few individual words, its no more than that. There seems to be no attempt to teach the pupils to actually speak the language - its more knowing a few words in isolation. The other week when it was chinese new year, they seemed to spend half the week making pretty lanterns and cards etc but again, it was all fairly superficial. TBH my friend's DD who is in a local state primary learned more about chinese new year that week than my DDs. I am particularly concerned that my DDs are missing other lessons to so say 'benefit' from this. I've sounded out a few other parents and i am not alone in feeling this. the mandarin teacher also does some evening sessions for parents, and although i havent attended, I'm getting the same message with those. It all seems to be very overhyped, as if the school wants to look like its ahead of the game without any real substance. The last straw was when i heard that the teacher will be finishing a week early at easter to fly back to China for the vacation. Easter break is 3 weeks long anyway, so this will mean she's away for a month. It just all seems a bit shoddy and lacking in professionalism to me. I wonder whether there are any other parents who have experience of this kind of thing, because I understand its a fairly common initiative to have this in independent schools. I really want to know whether I'm being ripped off or whether this is par for the course. DH is all set to go in all guns blazing and tell the school that he's sick of them being a profit making organisation and about time they started thinking about education . I don't feel as strongly but I wonder whether he has a point. We are paying a LOT of money for this education.

It does sound like a rip off, but I'm a very bad person to ask because I am inclined to think that all private education is a rip off - sorry.

I have heard people saying that Mandarin is such a difficult language for Westerners that it's completely impractical for it to be taught in school to any sensible level - but I don't know if that's true.

dd (4.5) goes to a bog-standard (fair but not outstanding or good) primary school and they have a mandarin chinese language club at lunchtimes.
She hasn't joined yet because it's for children from year 1 upwards.
But I would like her to when the time comes. Big difference though is that it is a voluntary club rather than a compulsory lesson.
The lessons/depth of learning you are describing for senior school pupils does not sound adequate to me (am comparing to my knowledge of French aged 11 and then 14, pre-GCSE options, on the basis of 1.5 hours teaching plus homework a week).

My daughter's state secondary school offers Mandarin as an option, but only a few children have been allowed to take it up and they are expected to do after school lessons as well and school time ones to get anywhere near GCSE level.

We have Mandarin lessons at school, but they are pretty much in the category of 'club'. They take place after school, although the environment is very formal. We have a native speaker, who is one of our maths teachers (and very strict). It is no picnic, and I just cannot picture her doing crafts.

She is only in her second year in our school, so the Mandarin has not permeated through to GCSE yet, but I think she is doing crash AS-level, particularly for those who dropped French in Y9 and now realising that a MFL is actually quite beneficial on UCAS forms.

perhaps not all guns blazing, but you need to speak to them. ask them how they see the course evolving and what itb will be reasonable to expect the children to know two years down the line

DH went to China on business and came back with 4 words of Mandarin (one being "beer") so £ for £ I think he got more Mandarin than your children seem to be getting in these lessons.
Is there a lesson plan and stages they are meant to hit, like "after x lessons they will be able to say "my name is..." or similar?
Otherwise it sounds like a rip off, as you say.
A cHinese pen pal would be better than this.

But I am a bit old fashioned, I think studying a language means you should actually be able to converse in it...!

One of the really useful things that my boys' school does is the running of 'how we teach' sessions for parents. This is a serious of evening presentations where they literally explain to parents every aspect of the teaching of their subjects. I am a teacher and would never assume anything outside of my own subject. What we do in Science is different from other subjects, and it is important not to look down on other subjects because they don't do things the same way as us.

If you have any form of parents' council at your school, it may be an idea to suggest these kind of evenings. So much has changed since we parents have gone to school, and believe it or not, most teachers are trying to deliver value lessons.

This is a series

I think as a first step you need to write to the school and ask for a detailed curriculum for Mandarin, with objectives (GCSE? other exams?).

If you are unhappy with the response, you can take this further.

Really useful to hear your replies. I didnt realise mandarin is available in state schools too. DD's school flagged it up as if it was just an independent school thing and that they were way ahead of the game in offering it, so I'm a bit annoyed at that. I'm reluctant to complain, as the girls are happy at the school but i have to be honest I am concerned about the lack of inspiring lessons - i suppose if I'm honest we've been paying for the nice cosy atmosphere and the fact that the pupils are from nice homes and now the girls are getting older I am wondering if the teaching is really any better. The mandarin teacher has brought it to a head, but I've had my suspiscions for a while. My DD's are reasonable clever girls but not outstanding,and i know they will be happy to just 'go with the flow' and wont complain if they are offered a fairly cosy time of it!
Seeker that's interesting about mandarin being such a difficult language. It does make me wonder if there's any real intention that the pupils will learn something that is going to be a benefit in the long run.

I think that the Mandarin thing is a bit of a PR for schools thing at the moment. One of the schools we are considering for our children in Paris has obligatory Mandarin in the last three years of primary school - they make a big deal of it, but IMO it's a waste of time and I would rather my daughter studied Spanish.

pukka and anna - thanks for that. I think that's a good idea to write and request a course outline and expectations. I dont want to go in all guns blazing - its not my style, so i'd rather deal with the issue than let DH get involved!!
I'm afraid there's no parents council type thing at the school so I cant use that as a route. We have a parents association but only does fundraising and social events.

They should be able to give you clarification as to the expected outcomes at the very least.

Eg. I teach Latin - I explain to parents that a year or two years' worth of Latin (one lesson & H/W per week) will result in students having a better understanding of how language works & the background to lots of modern European vocabulary - so a 'leg up' in English, French & Spanish. Also it's very good brain gym. But no, they won't be fluently reading Latin texts in the original unless they then opt for the GCSE.

The school should be able to tell you whether the course will a) generate a bit of interest for proper study of Mandarin later b) result in a recognised qualification or c) turn out fluent conversational users of Mandarin. I'd guess a), probably.

I work in a state school and we offer Mandarin as a twilight GCSE. We also offer Russian at GCSE, and both of these and japanese at A level

reason we do all of this is we are a language collage and also offer the more regular choices like French German, spanish and Italian

I understand Mandarin to be a very complex language and a school offering it as a status trip to all DCs is on a hiding to nothing. My state grammar school offered Russian- but only to those girls who'd made the grade in French, German and Latin, ie, the best at languages.

Actually- a bit off topic here but in reply to April's post of 15.41 today- you've hit the nail on the head about private ed in a lot of ways: What you're buying IS one or all of the following- small/cosy/intimate/MIDDLE CLASS/the ability to chuck out riff raff/status/better exam results due to more hand-holding/ fill in the blanks! These things are not to be sniffed at but please don't fall into the trap of always assuming the education at a private school will automatically be 'better' than that at a state school. I smiled, albeit kindly at your remark that you were 'annoyed' to find state schools teach Mandarin as well, almost as if your irritation was that non privately educated children might get that advantage too. I'm SURE you can't have meant that. Though it IS annoying to realise that the state counterpart will have to have recognised teaching qualifications in Mandarin and will be expected to deliver to a pre-ordained standard.

If you're otherwise satisfied with the school, stick to being happy with the cosy atmosphere.

april68, my dd's independent school offers Mandarin from Year 5 and have to rejig the curiculum to do that. TBH, although it is very important to me that my dcs learn Mandarin (it is their heritage), I am not counting on those classes.

Just signed my dd with a Chinese school that takes children from 5 - it comprises 3 hours per week on Sunday. It prepares the children for GCSE Mandarin. The principal, who won awards for her work in this area, REFUSES to take on students unless at least one parent can speak and WRITE Mandarin and shows commitment to support the student in the lessons. She said that unless that is the case, I might as well throw my money away. Apparently parents have complained previously that their children weren't progressing and she said that there isn't a lot she can do without parents' playing their role. I was informally tested on the standard of my own Mandarin before she agreed to register dd.

This is just to emphasise that Mandarin IS a completely different language from English. Although the grammar and sentence structure is fairly simple, it does require a lot of rote learning of words and expressions and learning to write. And I find that unless you learnt from a young age, you never really get the accent right (which is crucial to being understood).

You are right to be concerned that these Mandarin lessons are distracting and taking the curriculum away from more worthwhile subjects.

I am not very in favour but I can't imagine it harms them and my youngest have learned very little in French in the last 4 years from age 5 to be honest but that's probably their lack of competence as anything.

And schools having to trawl China to fill places are often not always that good.

April68 - you may well be surprised at lots of things that state schools offer! Maybe you ought to do a little research before comimtting megabucks to the rest of your childrens' education!

No, it's open and shut. 6% of children at private schools. 50% at the best universities, massive life long advantage (as long as it's a good private schools). The ones that can barely fill their places and some of which do worse in exams than state schools (not most but some) may not be so good although even then they may add value to the not so clever child better than in some state schools.

Xenia, for someone who can talk a lot of sense sometimes your posts do make me chuckle! Of course it's not open shut - well, not if you judge education by more than just very narrow criteria. IME private schools tend to achieve 'better' exam results because quite frankly, if you take a whole bunch of above average kids from middle class homes then the chances are they're going to get higher grades than a bunch of mixed ability. It isn't necessarily anything to do with provision or teaching. Also, the 'best' universities is a bit misleading, because the best place to study a particular course may well not be one of the Russell Group or whatever.
'Massive life long advantage' is very emotive talk! What about the ability to form and maintain good relationships with people from all walks of life, I'd say that's probably a more important factor to one's success in life than whether one's parents paid for you to go to school.

I think (and I am guilty of it myself) that parents of children at independent schools are too slow to question the "value for money" they are getting. I have a friend who is a headmaster (independent sector) and he strives to set fees, policies, etc based on giving parents value for what they are spending in terms of things over and above what the state sector is able to deliver. I compare this with DS's school and the attitude of the head, and it doesn't look good - shame said friend lives and teaches on the other side of the country!

Suffice to say we are now considering all options (state and private) for DS at the next stage!

Yes, but if you get ability to form good relationships at private schools which is more to do with personality and genes and home environment why not also get the benefit of private schools academically. It's not - inabilty to form relationships and good exam results private school and ability to form relationships and not so good exam results at state schools. I don't see why just because you're educated with other clever children from homes which can afford fees which by the way does not mean rich parents - round here you might have 4 adult family members working in indian corner shops contributing so the child goes to a private school, you won't be able to know how to talk to children from other walks of life. indeed the opposite - private schools give you a confidence and ability to talk to anyone that state schools don't provide.

But there are poor private schools around, without doubt, one set up in someone's house. Ones where you're paying for a silly uniform but the exam results are not very good etc etc. Just because you pay doesn't mean it's better. Our policy was pick schools in the top 20 in the UK for exam results who have been in that place for 10 or 20 years, with long histories, reasonably large schools with a good brand and you can't go very wrong.

"private schools give you a confidence and ability to talk to anyone that state schools don't provide."

What, like the Shadow Cabinet? Really good at talking to anybody, that lot are!