Is the school ripping us off? (long- sorry)

[april68]

DD's, 11 and 14, attend a local indpendent school. Over recent years there has been an increasing intake of overseas pupils, especially chinese, hong kong etc. That's fine; seems to be a fairly general thing in independent schools these days. Last year a big deal was made about a mandarin teacher starting at the school, about how mandarin was going to be the language of business in the future etc and last sept the mandarin teacher was duly appointed. Well, as far as I can see, its all a load of hype. DD1 (14) gets 3 mandarin lessons a week and DD2 who is in the prep dept gets 1 at the moment. However, when i ask them about the lessons, its clear that although they've learned a few individual words, its no more than that. There seems to be no attempt to teach the pupils to actually speak the language - its more knowing a few words in isolation. The other week when it was chinese new year, they seemed to spend half the week making pretty lanterns and cards etc but again, it was all fairly superficial. TBH my friend's DD who is in a local state primary learned more about chinese new year that week than my DDs. I am particularly concerned that my DDs are missing other lessons to so say 'benefit' from this. I've sounded out a few other parents and i am not alone in feeling this. the mandarin teacher also does some evening sessions for parents, and although i havent attended, I'm getting the same message with those. It all seems to be very overhyped, as if the school wants to look like its ahead of the game without any real substance. The last straw was when i heard that the teacher will be finishing a week early at easter to fly back to China for the vacation. Easter break is 3 weeks long anyway, so this will mean she's away for a month. It just all seems a bit shoddy and lacking in professionalism to me. I wonder whether there are any other parents who have experience of this kind of thing, because I understand its a fairly common initiative to have this in independent schools. I really want to know whether I'm being ripped off or whether this is par for the course. DH is all set to go in all guns blazing and tell the school that he's sick of them being a profit making organisation and about time they started thinking about education . I don't feel as strongly but I wonder whether he has a point. We are paying a LOT of money for this education.

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Sorry - that is not the exclusive reserve of private schools, oops (although with Xenia as an example you might think so) - DH can and does patronise anyone at all - and he went to a grotty comprehensive

No Xenia, I didnt say that private school = inability to form good relationships but good exam results, and state school = ability to form good relationships but crap exam results. That seems to me to be a really crass analysis! I was simply pointing out that there are probably several factors ahead of exam results which determine whether you have a happy and fulfilled life.
I think the post about whether you are actually getting value for money in private school is a really good one. IME the factors which make private schools cosy and comfortable and able to get good exam results are often not the things you are paying for. As I said, stick a group of average or above kids from middle class homes together and it's not that difficult to get good results - you probably don't even have to add much value, the kids will achieve with excellent, good or mediocre teaching.
Xenia's other point about private schools leading to a much greater chance of getting into a top university is an interesting one. As I said earlier, personally I dont think it's as simple as that anyway, because the right course for an individual depends on lots of factors, and it isnt necessarily going to mean Oxbridge (in fact as someone said, look at the shadow cabinet.....)
I think it's fairly common knowledge that yes, going to the 'right' university might give you a leg up in certain professions, just as having a parent in them also helps. Even Xenia I'm sure doesnt really believe that 6% of pupils in private schools but 50% of them in the top universities means that private school pupils are much more intelligent! Of course they're not. But again, is it worth paying a school simply for the old boys' network? I resent feeling that I'm paying for something which the school isnt delivering, and I'm sure many others who believe in getting on in life on your own merits would agree

Yes, but if you can increase your child's chances by feeding it organic chicken or reading to it and listening to it or refraining from abusing it most of us do - paying for a good school is exactly the same thing.

The reaons private school pupils do better is because (a) more money is spend (b) they get better teaching smaller classes better advice on where to apply (c) many of the better ones are very selective 5 - 10 applicants a place (as with some grammars) (d) parents very committed to education because they pay and (e) perhaps cleverer people have cleverer children and earn more money and thus pay too.

But if you can't afford it there's no point worrying about it. If you can then yes I'd advise people to pay for the better schools.

"DH is all set to go in all guns blazing and tell the school that he's sick of them being a profit making organisation and about time they started thinking about education"
Hilarious.,
What exactly were you expecting from a private school? It is a business, first and foremost. The whole reason it exists is to make money for its owners. Ok so it does so by providing a (hopefully) good education and so ensuring it keeps attracting pupils etc, but never forget with a private school that it is a business, and the motivation behind any business is to make money.

on the mandarin question, i think you should get together with a few other parents and all agree to talk to the school about it. IF enough of you moan that it will make good business sense to sort it out!

I have nothing against sending kids to private school btw, i just think it must be done with open eyes!

Increasing your child's chances is always a case of weighing up the investment against the outcome though isnt it? I know plenty of people, myself included, who could afford private schools. But clearly many people choose not to use private schools because they don't agree that they are getting significantly better outcomes to justify it. I don't see the evidence base for your second point either - that the teaching is 'better'. Easy to confuse that with the fact that teaching is easier. Agree that cleverer people tend to have cleverer children. Often, though, it's not necessarily the really clever people all this is an issue for, because often they have the drive and confidence to achieve in life anyway. For the average or high average maybe its more of a concern

I think it is quite a sweeping statement to say that ll the teaching in all the private schools is better. though i totally afree with alfie that all the teaching in the all the private schools is a lot easier!
little class of posh children with enthusiastic educated parents who are supported at home and are far less likely to have learning difficulties or behaviour diffiulties or social problems versus the 30 strong total mixed bag of your local comp with people not able to speak english yet, kids who are in local authority care, kids who have been excluded from other schools, kids whose parents really don't give too much of a shit, and lots of other kids who aren't so extreme also! the teachers could be complete simpletons in the private school and succeed just by virtue of the bright wealthy children they are teaching!

When I asked for feedback about a school I was considering for dcs to, one of the criticisms from a MNer was of the language provision (it only offered French, German, Spanish, Latin) and thought it should offer Chinese as her dcs school did, but which I presume she meant Mandarin. But strangely I wasn't perturbed as I could imagine what the provision might be!

Mandarin is fiendishly difficult to learn. I have a friend in HK who is learning it at present since it's the language business is conducted in, though in schools and at home it's Cantonese that is spoken. Prior to lessons he could only say hello, goodbye and what the lift taught him! And he would say now that he's not massively further on, but the few sentences he can speak show courtesy to his hosts and then business is rapidly discussed in English! In Cantonese for example, the word 'ma' can have 9 different meaning based entirely on intonation which is very hard for a Western ear to hear.

I would imagine that the Mandarin lessons are primarily a taster for British students, who if they have any ability, will need to go and immerse themselves in the language for a year to become fluent but in reality the benefit will be for the native Mandarin speakers who can easily add a GCSE to their tally and make the results look better.

Happy to buy a class like that PSCMum describes for my children. Think that's good for them. On the whole the outcomes are better in the private sector particularly if you can get your children into one of those top 20 mostly day schools for very academic children.

Is the teaching better? M ex husband certainly find it easier as any teacher would - he said he could be a teacher not a policeman but also due to higher wages nicer atmosophere and lots of perks you do attract teachers from the state sector - there's a net loss each year except for the very left wing ones and I wouldnt' want those teaching my children anyway. 46% of parents would pay if they could afford to. 6% currently pay. I think that speaks for itself in terms of what parents know is good value.

As for profits virtually none of them make profits at all. They are all old fashioned charitable bodies without shareholders and every last penny gets ploughed into the school mostly on teachers' salaries. UIt i s a very very rare school that is profit making (Cognita? Gems?) All the ones we know about from Manchester Grammar to Eton, from all those owned by the city livery companies, the GPDST schools, every good one I can think of is certainly not in the business or making profits and don't do so.

Independent unfortunately doesn't mean better in my area. I will not be paying 10k a year for my nearest independent which offers class sizes of 20 and a bit of French and lessons for the juniors in a glorified portacabin. There are some very good independent schools out there whose stringent selectivity give them the standing they have in the league tables but they're not to be found here!

I think some parents assume if they are paying hand over fist then they must be getting better, but it is hard to ascertain the quality of the teaching on those prelim visits, even when you think you know what to look for like dh and I do.

Unfortunately I also know enough about the calibre of a few teachers who've gone in private ed to make me v v cautious.

o xenia, please. they are profit making and that is why they exist, even if it is not that the profits show up in the 'profits' section of their accounts, the profits are there. I know this from being very close to people who run one in st John's wood, i know all about the money they make from it, perhaps they dress it up by paying themselves a salary out of it (head is not a trained teacher, but decided to set up a prep school and make herself the head) sure she gets paid loads and ithe money doesn't show up in school 'profits' but they are made nonetheless.

i agree that i'd much prefer my kids to be taught in a little class of well behaved kids than a large one of unweildy kids. but we mustn't kid ourselves about how extremely unjust and unfair this is. Our children are lucky, they are born into families who love them and want what is best for them and have the education to deliver it. Loads of kids are born into poverty, social exclusion etc, and will never have those oppurtunities, and by constantly creaming our kids out of local schools and putting them into private ones, we are ensuring the continuity of the poverty cycle - the poor kids who need the good schools most are left to rot in the worst schools as there is no one to fight for them or their parents to get better services.

That is not to say I am doing anything about this with my own children, its just that we need to be clear about what the social implications of what we're doing here.

Xenia - it's absolutely not just the 'very left wing' teachers who won't go near the state sector! I think you've got stuck in the 70s with some of your comments! I teach alongside many really inspirational colleagues, a large proportion of whom have no great desire to teach in the private sector. Not because they are raging lefties but for a variety of reasons. Often because state schools tend to be more on the ball about new initiatives etc. Also a lot of people go into teaching because it's a socially useful career as well as being interesing - and it's easier to feel you're being useful when you're in the system that over 90% of the population uses.
The point about 46% would use use private if they could is a red herring.As I pointed out on another thread, it's a bit like doing a survey of Ford drivers and asking them whether they'd rather drive a Porsche. I bet 99% of them would say yes. It doesnt mean that they're not going to get to their destination in the Ford though! Might make them feel a bit better about the journey, especially if they're not very confident and the Porsche makes a statement for them, but ultimately, if you have the driving skills you'll get where you want to go!

Don't know about their political leanings, but at an independent dh and I visited a few weeks ago, a significant proportion of the teachers were socially awkward (not, in a charmingly eccentric way) or were nice ppl with not much presence who'd found their niche at this school. Dh & I independently thought the teaching looked uninspired.

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Oops - the point is that private schools are inclined to screen out the children with learning difficulties during the selection process - not that middle class children don't have learning difficulties.

Actually that is true for the school we looked at, it was very clear in their literature that there was little/no provision for SN. In our drive-home debrief dh and I agreed that if you put brightish kids with satisfactory teaching they're probably do ok.

This is very much our fall-back option if the state school goes, excuse the crudity, tits-up.

That is such bollocks, seeker.

None of the leading private schools which are the only ones I would have considered are profit making, none. I would be happy with a compromise on the thread - avoid any private school that is profit making. The teachers adn head don't own schools like st Paul's, Westminster, none of the good schools at all. Of course some little prep schools might be but pick a good one that isn't.

I know some private schools who can't cater at all well for students with diagnosed learning difficulties, and do tend to filter these out in their selection process. Some private schools on the other hand make a point of catering for dyslexics who can afford to pay. So I wouldnt say seeker is talking 'bollocks'.

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The extra special way is that you get an extra specially large bill oops!

One of my colleagues asked the head of the private school she was looking at for her son about their policy on children with SN and the head said that they do not take those type of children because they screen them out.

My colleague wisely decided that school was unsuitable for her DS.

My older daughter is slightly dyslexic. The head of Habs junior school gave her extra help personally in her own time (and without charge at a private school). But certainly I don't want at academic private schools children who cannot keep up with the work - you are paying for children to be educated with children who can all work at the same level like the state grammar school system. Whilst some special needs easily fit within that clearly others don't. The best schools in our country or indeed on this planet are UK private schools and the state system and other nations have learned much from them. They are one of our greatest assets and it's a shame so many people are jealous of them presumably because they cannot afford to buy that advantage.

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IME private school kids make up a disproportionate number of kids entering the best universities...

.... and then go on to make up a disproportionate number of kids graduating from these top universities with 3rds and 2:2s, with a minor breakdown or two en-route.