Is the school ripping us off? (long- sorry)

[april68]

DD's, 11 and 14, attend a local indpendent school. Over recent years there has been an increasing intake of overseas pupils, especially chinese, hong kong etc. That's fine; seems to be a fairly general thing in independent schools these days. Last year a big deal was made about a mandarin teacher starting at the school, about how mandarin was going to be the language of business in the future etc and last sept the mandarin teacher was duly appointed. Well, as far as I can see, its all a load of hype. DD1 (14) gets 3 mandarin lessons a week and DD2 who is in the prep dept gets 1 at the moment. However, when i ask them about the lessons, its clear that although they've learned a few individual words, its no more than that. There seems to be no attempt to teach the pupils to actually speak the language - its more knowing a few words in isolation. The other week when it was chinese new year, they seemed to spend half the week making pretty lanterns and cards etc but again, it was all fairly superficial. TBH my friend's DD who is in a local state primary learned more about chinese new year that week than my DDs. I am particularly concerned that my DDs are missing other lessons to so say 'benefit' from this. I've sounded out a few other parents and i am not alone in feeling this. the mandarin teacher also does some evening sessions for parents, and although i havent attended, I'm getting the same message with those. It all seems to be very overhyped, as if the school wants to look like its ahead of the game without any real substance. The last straw was when i heard that the teacher will be finishing a week early at easter to fly back to China for the vacation. Easter break is 3 weeks long anyway, so this will mean she's away for a month. It just all seems a bit shoddy and lacking in professionalism to me. I wonder whether there are any other parents who have experience of this kind of thing, because I understand its a fairly common initiative to have this in independent schools. I really want to know whether I'm being ripped off or whether this is par for the course. DH is all set to go in all guns blazing and tell the school that he's sick of them being a profit making organisation and about time they started thinking about education . I don't feel as strongly but I wonder whether he has a point. We are paying a LOT of money for this education.

I'm a bit confused about this assumption that people are jealous! That might be your assumption Xenia, but as many people have pointed out, they could afford it but aren't convinced that the best schools on the planet are the UK private schools. In fact the more I see of some of our Eton educated politicians and royalty, the less convincing your arguments are xenia.

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That's a fair point Kif. I believe that's true that although a disproportionate amount of private school pupils get into 'good' universities, they don't tend to get the top results. State school pupils tend to get the firsts.

Xenia, what do you think about the social implications of private school for children whose parents cannot afford to send them to private school?

I also want to know what she thinks about those of us who can afford it but choose not to. Now let's guess... I reckon she pities people who can't afford it and thinks those of us who can but don't pay are nuts.

i agree.
But I just wonder does the social impact of independent education ever enter anyones mind when they are considering it for their kids?

I am considering it for my kids - I'm not a perfect whiter than white socialist, but I am really torn as I do not think it is right for society as a whole that we are divided, so young, into 'rich' 'poor' 'clever enough' 'not clever enough' etc, as this just perpetuates all of the social problems none of us would wish our children to have to endure. But then you look at my local school and you think SWEET MOTHER OF GOD THEY ARE NOT GOING THERE but then you think - but someone's kids are going there. And o look, its people who don't speak english very well, people who don't have parents who are well educated etc etc.

a big headache i think.

If everyone just went to their local school thouhg, it would all be fine. I really think that, but I am not going to do it first!

PSCMUM - yes, it's a really tricky one, as I guess a lot of us share your viewpoint. There are, of course, the two extremes - people who think private schools are absolutely wonderful and as long as you can afford it then fine, everyone else can go hang, and then at the other end the dyed in the wool socialists who wouldnt touch private schools as a matter of principle. But I guess most of us are somewhere inbetween. There arent any simple quick fix solutions, but I suppose it's a case of supporting the local state school as far as possible, plus voting in governments which will at least attempt to move towards a more equitable system.
I am in a slightly unusual position, as ds attended a private school - he was a choriser, but switched to state in Year 9. And our local state school is excellent, with high exam results, so I don't know how I'd feel if things were different. In ds's case, he couldnt have been a chorister without attending the private school, he is extremely musical and had the ability to gain a choral scholarship so it was a case of either developing that gift or not having the chance at all. Having said that, i noticed on the news that another cathedral school, Bristol, is becoming a state academy soon, so I guess this kind of thing is a move in the right direction.

Those that can afford to pay but don't are kindly but misguided and because of the scales which have yet to be lifted from their eyes just don't realise they are not doing the best for their children.

Social implications for children who can't afford it? In economic terms it's an incentive to those children to do well in life to be able to buy the advantage. It's how markets work. There are many first time buyers in private education.

What happened to the Tangerine?

Mandarin is being hyped all over the education system at the moment. Personally I think most language teaching is pretty dire in UK schools (state and private). Years and years of MFL and most children can't speak another language when they leave school.

Thanks Xenia. I'll keep waiting for those scales to fall from my eyes. And if my kids turn out happy and successful anyway? Beat myself up because they'd have been even happier if I was buying their education?
And what about people who can't afford to pay for education but are doing worthwhile and necessary jobs (eg nannying, to enable parents to work ? How do they rate in the scheme of things?

That's just how the system works - some people earn more than others and some can afford to pay. Happiness has little to do with what school you go to anyway and is a different issue. Most parents do the best they can for their children whether that's putting buying them books above spending on themselves or feeding them well. Picking the best education you can for them based on your own means is what most parents do too. The fact some can afford better education than others is no different from the inequalities we get all over the place - even that some parents are just hopeless at parenting whatever their income, some feed their children badly and some pick dreadful state or private schools because they're misguided.

I do think if you can afford to pay and can then most parents then do pay. If you take jobs where people typically earn over £200k it's fairly rare to see parents not paying. There are 100 houses in the areas near mine. I don't know anyone who uses the state system for education even from age 5.

We can, at a push, afford private ed for my dcs. Such is my rural backwater, we can't find any that's worth paying for! They do mediocre really well.

I suppose that's one problem of living in certain areas. I wonder if parents have an obligation to move nearer good schools rather than a country area that is lovely for adults who like views and country walks (and little children too) but may not be so good for children's future job prospects and teenage entertainment (except drugs at the local bus stop) and schools.

I and DH are comp educated, both have PhDs and earn good salaries. In fact DH has recently been promoted to a director post and he has just only turned 35yo!

We can easily afford to send our DTS to independent school but choose not to. They are nearly 4yo and can already name the planets in the solar system, can distinguish between a normal duck and an Eurasion coot, tell the difference between a maple leaf, horse chestnut leaf, sweet chestnut leaf and an alder leaf. They can do that because when we are not working (I work 3 days per week), we spend time with them. Supportive home environment coupled with a supportive state school trumps independent education any day imho.

Also, we know family members, university colleagues plus work colleagues who have been privately educated. For many of them, if I was their parents, I'd demand a refund.

My aunt sent both her daughters to private school, both left with nothing. Similarly, DH's cousins. My old boss sent both his daughters to a highly regarded private school and oldest daughter got a D in English and failed Maths GCSE, despite being in a class of 7.

Also, Xenia, drugs are prevalent at private schools so don't delude yourself that it only happens in the state sector. Read and weep.

Yes, but that's just anecdotal. Most children do better at most private schools in all sorts of areas. Yes, drugs are there and I think boarding schools are a bad idea including for drugs reasons but they're no worse than in state schools.

Anyway I am happy with my choices and you with yours. So there it is. I buy a basket of things with fees of which good exam results is only one. Accent, confidence, class, connections, fields, lovely environment as a parent to sip champagne in and not least good ethical values, no national curriculum, educating beyond the curriculum, extra curriculars etc etc on and on and I am very happy with what I have.

That's fine then Xenia. Though I'm not sure confidence is 'bought' - I would say has a lot more to do with innate character and personality. Ethical values don't come from school either imo. If you don't know anyone who educates outside the private sector, then I would have thought that in itself is fairly limiting. But maybe a lot of people earning over 200K feel a huge pressure to follow the herd and pay. Glad we don't all. Anyway, as you say, you're happy with your choices so thats fine. But you do seem desperate to convince yourself that the rest of us want your life too.

My children know lots of children from state schools - you live in a world with all kinds of people, not some cut off bubble. Most people on £200k pay simply because the schools are better and the cost is easy to bear.

Not desperate at all, just interested in schools and different view points, that's all. I'd be just as happy to talk about anything else. I recorded a podcast yesterday which was fun.

"But again, is it worth paying a school simply for the old boys' network?"

Where to begin? Okay that statement is utter tosh from start to finish.

I pay for my children to go to school because:

(i) It is academically selective
(ii) It has small class sizes
(iii) It has extremely well qualified teachers
(iv) It is racially mixed
(v) It is first rate at out of school activities such as sports and music
(vi) It focuses on what is needed in terms of good exam results and children HAVE to work hard

The average child emerges from that school with 11-12 A/A*s (a few Bs) at GCSE and 4 A/B grades at A level. This will enable them to read for a good degree at a good university. They will then be able (if they so choose) to go into one of the professions, such as law. This is nothing to do with an old boys network and everything to do with taking bright children and getting them to work hard.

If they choose to become trapeze artists, that is of course up to them, but at least they will have had the option.

And bright children don't work hard and get good results elsewhere.......?

I think that bright children can work hard and get good results in a state school but I think it is harder in a state school environment with mixed ability classes where the emphasis is on crowd control rather than learning.

Obviously the points that Xenia makes about confidence are relevant too.

The fact is that privately educated children earn significantly more in their lives. This is not to do with an old boys network, it's got everything to do with educational standards

Oh and to the OP - Mandarin is impossible, it is nothing like any European language to learn, it takes years of study for even competent linguists to get anywhere. I know it is all the rage right now, but I really would give it a miss

'I think it is harder in a state school environment with mixed ability classes where the emphasis is on crowd control rather than learning. '- probably would be true, but why do you assume the emphasis is more on crowd control rather than learning? This seems to assume an awful lot about the education system, from someone who doesnt appear to have a great deal of experience of it!! Also most state schools I know set by ability rather than have mixed abilty, certainly from Year 8/9 upwards!

Well I took one look at my local school, and PCSMUM summed up my reaction nicely:

"But then you look at my local school and you think SWEET MOTHER OF GOD THEY ARE NOT GOING THERE"

Which is how I felt. I am only posting to correct the assertion that people earn significantly more following a private education had anything to do with an old boys' network.

Oh right, didnt realise you'd looked at your local school, Poor you, it sounds awful that you have to pay.
Laughing my tits off at the idea that there's no 'old boys'network' though. I mean, have you looked at the calibre of some people in the so-called 'top' professions? I came across the biggest load of public school w*nkers when I was in law!