STEINER WALDORF SCHOOLS AND INSTITUTIONS

[theantignome]

hi everyone, i wanted to start a new thread with a NEW topic heading here, as the active one at the moment with over 700 posts looks like it is all about the Cambridge school. This may confuse newcomers.

Let's continue the debate here !
All newcomers welcome !

I will shortly link our two previous threads on MN for any one new to have a look at.

Davy, could you also give a link to your new yahoo list here please ? Thanks.

Thank you, Diana, that's a really helpful post for me.

Diana, that is also helpful to me; it's the comfort of having it re affirmed I think.

Also - I always suspected the Grand Dragon theory.... the big anthros were certainly pulling the strings where we were, with the others desperate to please them
the irony of the level playing field of the college of teachers...

Ans where on earth is Sune?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/43/492999?stamp=080315180253

I just found sune.

Why is he asking about landmark?

"the irony of the level playing field of the college of teachers..."

Did they tell you the College of Teachers is a level playing field? Did they tell you the school is "faculty run," but not clarify just which faculty?

Are all the teachers on the College of Teachers?

Advice for prospective Steiner parents:
Ask which teachers are part of the College of Teachers. Ask what are the criteria for a teacher to join the College of Teachers.

The answer to this may clarify a lot of things for you.

If it doesn't, ask this:

Are all the teachers on the College of Teachers anthroposophists - and/or "coming to anthroposophy"?

Sune is trying the classic tactic of deflection. If there's another cult that can be considered a worse problem, than anthroposophy is nicce and cuddly.

I actually did have a waldorf teacher who was a 'proper' teacher. She had a proper teacher training and had been teaching in a proper school before being caught up in waldorf. Still, the whole waldorf system is corrupt, but I think it's possibel that it functions even worse in those classes where the teacher has only anthro education. With our teacher, the situation was often chaotic, but when we had a stand-in during a period when she was ill, the situation turned to chaos and mayhem, and those teachers were even wackier, because they weren't just deluded and insane, they really didn't have any knowledge AT ALL about what they were supposed to do.

But I think the teachers who have a proper training often come to waldorf becuase they don't 'fit in' in the proper school setting. Or they have joined the cult. I think, often there's a reason, and it isn't always a good one. I always wonder what my teacher had succeeded in teaching kids in the public school were she'd been prior to waldorf. (She only had one waldorf class ever - the one I was in - from what I know.)

There aren't any good data, as far as I'm aware, on what proportion of Steiner teachers have "other" training versus those who have only Steiner training. I'm sure it varies a good bit from school to school, country to country etc., depending on quite a variety of things such as the proximity to Steiner training centers, pay scales, and probably a wide variety of local factors I would know nothing about.

What I'm fairly sure about is that where the teacher has SOME other training - or experience outside the Steiner system - things are likely to go better. And where MORE teachers in the school have some other training, the better run the school will be overall. This is just my guess also but I feel certain it's a good hunch.

To say this is not even necessarily to reflect poorly on Waldorf. Good teachers anywhere have more resources to draw from. They are encouraged to, rather than discouraged from, drawing on as many ideas as possible to reach students. Experience counts and exposure to a wide variety of different theories, practices, and approaches makes a better teacher. Teachers who have only the notions of one supposedly clairvoyant mystic to base an entire teaching career on are seriously handicapped. The person could be a genius and this would still be a poor idea for running a school. The teacher likewise can be talented or not talented and if she's trying to do "all Steiner all the time" - or any guru - she's at a disadvantage compared to a better trained, more flexible and resourceful teacher.

Also, teachers who are encouraged to learn more about their subject matter are likely to be doing a better job. Prospective parents can ask about this at the Steiner interview. Do your teachers go for additional training at NON-STEINER conferences or workshops, take classes or advanced degrees OUTSIDE the Steiner system, or do they mainly associate with other anthroposophists at anthroposophical workshops?

Again this does not necessarily mean we have to diss Steiner training but a history teacher, say, is clearly a better history teacher if he or she keeps learning about history. A language teacher who keeps up with opportunities to use the language at higher levels (conversational, literature etc.) keeps his or her interest and knowledge fresh and alive and brings that back to the classroom.

This is in contrast to a Steiner teacher who never goes anywhere or does anything outside Steiner institutions. Does he/she spend the summer at one of the anthro training centers doing ever-more eurythmy or watercolor painting, or does he/she travel, study, read more widely etc.?

I remember asking one of our teachers when was the last time she had read anything on her own that wasn't work-related. (She was stressed; I was merely asking to be friendly, I wasn't criticizing her, I thought she needed a break. She did Steiner study groups practically every night of the week.) She replied, "Just last night." When I asked what she had read she said "Grimm's Fairy Tales." Well, that's anthroposophical too. I meant when was the last time she had read, like, a novel, or even a newspaper? The answer was not for years. This is a person who isn't really serving as a great role model for children, or bringing a wider world to children - this is a person absorbed in a cult.

Just looked up Chubbics link and found this:
manu

Is anyone else aware of Mane/Manu. Living in a steiner community I am really tempted to rename my dog or say I've had a vision about Manu

Some of you might already be familiar with the Web sites of former Waldorf student Roger Rawlings. Here is a link to the latest installment in his series of articles exposing the truth about Waldorf education.

waldorf-problems.com/foundations

Here's an excerpt from "Foundations:"

[The Dreaming Earth] Let's look more deeply into the Anthroposophical conception of truth and whether such truth is conveyed to Waldorf students.

A Waldorf teacher suggests that plants may be considered the Earth?s dreams. ?[Dr. Steiner]: ?But plants during the high summer are not the Earth?s dreams, because the Earth is in a deep sleep in the summer.?? [DISCUSSIONS WITH TEACHERS, p. 129]

I?ve argued that Waldorf teachers tend to be Anthroposophists or Anthropop fellow travelers. You need only consider the statements that Waldorf teachers made to Steiner to see what sorts of folks he wanted to employ. (Or take Steiner?s own word for it: Waldorf?s ?staff consists of anthroposophists.? [Rudolf Steiner, EDUCATION FOR ADOLESCENTS, Foundations of Waldorf Education (Anthroposophic Press, 1996), p. 60].)

The teacher?s suggestion that plants may be the earth?s dreams is utterly bizarre?or would be to rational folks. But not to Steiner. He accepts the question as having meaning, but?as usual?he corrects the interrogator: Steiner always knew best, in his opinion, which was the only opinion that counted (?That is incorrect...? ?But plants in the summer...?).

As to when the earth is ?asleep?: Anthropops believe that the Earth is an organism that is evolving, just as the beings on or under its surface are evolving. ??Just think children, our Earth feels and experiences everything that happens within it...it has feelings like you have, and can be angry or happy like you.?? [DISCUSSIONS WITH TEACHERS, p. 132] There?s something attractive in this fantasy. Nowadays, the ?Gaia hypothesis? has proponents. Certainly we need to cherish and protect the Earth. But is our planet an organism that feels anger and happiness? Steiner said so, so it must be true, hm? And here?s a central point: Note that Steiner is quoting what a Waldorf teacher might say to students (?Just think, children...?). Steiner is asserting that a Waldorf teacher may feed students junk science, since what is false for science can be, if Steiner says so, true for Anthroposophists. Immediately after saying that the Earth ?can be angry or happy like you,? Steiner says ?In this way you gradually form [i.e., in children's' minds] a view of life lived under the Earth during winter. That is the truth. And it is good to tell children these things. This is something that even materialists could not argue with...? [Ibid., p. 132] I beg to differ.

Waldorf faculty generally deny that Anthroposophical doctrines are taught to Waldorf students. Here we see what actually goes on, or should go on, according to the founder of Waldorf education. Steiner lays out an Anthroposophical tenet (that the Earth is a being that has emotions) and he says that this tenet can be explicitly conveyed to students. ?It is good to tell children these things.? So, then, when will Anthroposophy be in a Waldorf school? Almost always, both covertly and, less frequently perhaps, overtly.

Pity the poor child who accepts Steiner?s lesson and then mouths it (?The earth has feelings just like us?) in a college geology class.

End of excerpt from "Foundations" by Roger Rawlings.

Manu; Hindu, semi-divine. Progenitor of humanity and ruler of the earth. Manu was his first (of fourteen)incarnation.
Dunno specifically why Sune made this link, but it seems to refelect anthro propensity fo sort of associate itself with pretty much anything vaguely in tune with anthroposophy itself.
Davy

All the class teachers at our school were in the college, but it was a very small school- ( 90 when we went, dropped to less than 40 now I think)

There was a definite and obvious hierarchy, even the children were well aware of this, and made use of it by being much more badly behaved with some and playing teachers against each other.
Two had been in the state system, but this didn't make them better teachers. I suspect they thought they'd get an easier ride at Steiner, and wanted that education for free for their own.
I'm fairly certain they didn't read anything but Steiner,; if any conversation involved novels, exhibitions, even an article in the paper, they glazed over. they were in a total bubble. The world news didn't get through to them . This always amazed and appalled me, being so inward looking, it meant they had no interest in anything, anyone but Steiner Camphill.
my eldest daughter wrote for Junior Amnesty and put out a notice about it, she also put a notice about collecting stamps for Oxfam; only about two people ever showed any interest- if it wasn't fundraising for Steiner Camphill, they weren,t remotely interested.

Easeonline- Re. Manu, this just gets spookier and spookier.

Do you mean the fact that the whole of Steiner education is there so that he can come back? That's more or less what the link says isn't it?
But also that it should have happened at the end of the 20 century... are they waiting?

Northernrefugee - looks like it. I wonder what the special signs are? I guess a good sense of humour won't be on the magic list

The quote in full is from a poster called Erasmus on Rick Ross's website here:

"The most disturbing thing I ever read about Steiner was from a short lecture given in 1946 at the Threefold Community in NY state. I always thought Steiner was the rational one during the Krishnamurti fiasco of the Theosophical Society. From what I understood, Steiner completely rejected Theosophical attempts to pass a boy off as the reincarnation of Maitreya. However, then I discovered this little gem:

"The threefold social order of Rudolf Steiner is particularly a preparatory work to bring about a future incarnation of Manes. I once discussed with Rudolf Steiner the question of when would be the proper time for the application of etheric forces for technical uses. He said that this would be when the threefold order is established. He said that Manes could not find a suitable body yet, that all the forces he would be able to bring to an incarnation would be destroyed by modern education. Therefore he said that Waldorf education needed first to come into being and that the threefold social order must also come into being.
Therefore I would see it as our immediate task to bring about this threefold order first through thought and then through action, so that Manes can incarnate. By karma, Manes' incarnation would be due by the end of the century. Whether this will be possible I do not know, but if the threefold social order and Waldorf education were established he could incarnate. I see it as our task to make the preparations so that he can incarnate again."

Ehrenfried Pfeiffer
THE TASK OF THE ARCHANGEL MICHAEL
1946

And to confirm this, I also quote Bernard Lievegoed from his THE BATTLE OF THE SOUL ( 1993 ):

"Rudolf Steiner once said to Pfeiffer that he had started the Waldorf school and the threefold social order to make the incarnation of Manu and his helpers possible. Let us hope there are enough active anthroposophists to accomplish what Manu needs for his development. And let us hope anthroposophists will recognize him once he is here."

My question is this: How many people who are involved in Waldorf education, whether they be teachers, parents, students, etc, are aware that the grand purpose of Waldorf is to create a culture conducive to the incarnation of a spirit being named Manes/Manu??

Actually Bark- you know what I find the most disturbing, is when i see the date afterwards.
Sometimes I think ahh well- that was 1946, and then, you see the next bit, confirming it...19blinking93.. all still in common anthroposophical parlance...eukky

Just found a post from Sharon Lombard - a wonderfully articulate piece that echoes mine and many others experiences around the world.

If anyone is seriously thinking about putting their child into a steiner school, please read this first.

Sharon Lombard Spotlight on Anthroposophy

If only I had had the internet 8 years ago, I could have saved our family so much heartache

Totally agree, Barking. If i'd known all this six years ago we'd never have set foot in a Steiner School..

Hi Janni Sharon's piece describing her feeling sick when she drives past the school resonated with me. When we move I shall endevour to be as far away as possible from the buggers spiritually enlightened beings.

I remember discussing with Sharon Lombard on the mailing list of the small anti-Waldorf hate type of group, at whose site the not digested soup by her is found, that is linked to in a former posting.

She was quite obsessed with the occult, seemingly reading about it day and night, and from slightly to border paranoid to my impression, seeing spirits everywhere and behind everything that people do at Waldorf schools, from the common water you drink to the way teachers in the lower grades at small schools at times blow in sea shells to call the pupils playing outdoors to class, and then take them all in the hand and greet them individually when they entered the classroom, before starting class.

It was she that propagated the view that what the pupils actually do when they make wet-on-wet paintings in Waldorf schools (the secret! goal of this, not told to the parents!) not was to make wet-on-wet paintings to explore the interaction of the basic colors, but to make "magical talismans", filled with spiritual power.

She was also one of those who on the mailing list of the anti-Waldorf fringe group argued for the view that the secret agenda (well, another secret agenda of Waldorf schools, also not told to the parents! ...), was to train the future rulers of the world, the "Anthroposophical World conspiracy" myth, one of the top ten+ myths about Waldorf education, cultivated and published by the group at its site as part of its "education of the public about Waldorf education".

For some comments on some examples of her extreme argumentation, describing the Bull, Eagle, Lion and Man described in St. John's Revelation (4:1-8) as surrounding the throne in heaven, as part of "the Anthroposophical Apocalyptic Seals", and exclaiming "Magic, magic, magic!" when referring to the picture of 'The microcosmic man' that was part of the Platonic humanist Renaissance tradition, see here. She is the one referred to as "someone" in the comments.

Wait a minute Eva you were busy rounding up the sources of some quotes for me, remember?

Yes, Eva, those are occult practices that prospective waldorf parents should know about before sending their children to waldorf.

Perhaps you'd care to give an explanation for the obsessive wet-on-wet painting of amourphous blobs that plagues the children year after year in waldorf. And feel free to explain the choice of motives, too. Don't go complaining about other people's efforts to explain these things, when you don't do anything to explain them yourself but find fault at others. Sharon Lombard's article is much more well researched than anything you've given us so far.

And yes, there is a secret agenda. The secret agenda is spiritual, and you know that as well as the rest of us.

Please do provide the sources for the quotes, now that you've finally appeared here again, or we'll assume that those are just some quotes copied over and over again between you, the waldorf proponents, without anyone knowing were they came from.

I guess we will have to be satisfied with the pathological repeated linking to those uninformative web sites of Eva's/Sune's.

They really don't do him any good at all.

Ok. This is Sune explaining waldorf on his web site, at the same time as he's indicating that critics are spreading myths about waldorf's goal:

"In Steiner's view, man is primarily a spiritual being, and we also live repeatedly as humans on earth, "reincarnating" through history in different cultures and varying between lives as a woman and as a man.

In the lectures mentioned, he expresses the view, that if we as individual humans do not increasingly take responsibility for our own lives and development as humans, in the future, we will be left to live only as parts of groups, where the groups will tell us what to think, feel and do."

Note that in the future there will be no individuality - those who live on will be given thoughts, feelings and directions by the group. It's very nice.

And man is a spritual being primarily. That's just bullshit, and not something to base an education upon.

And by taking responisbility for our development in the future - what he means is that "we" have to take responsibility for our soul and its future incarnations, to create the future society (based on anthroposophy, ie). Now, when he speaks of the individual responsibility - he's getting at the spiritual responsibilities of that soul in light of upcoming incarnations (that's got little to do with the normal use of the concept, such as in "developing ones individual interests and hobbies" and the like.) Which souls will reincarnate, develop, lead humanity in the future?

Races will have died out, and evil people will bear a marking on their forehead. I suppose that leaves us with the good race ruling, an extension of the best souls that have incarnated in the best bodies, the white ones.

No reason to see an AGENDA here??

Perhaps you should spell it out more clearly on your web site, Sune. How those things connect. The waldorf world could certainly use some openness about these things.

Zooey:

"I guess we will have to be satisfied with the pathological repeated linking to those uninformative web sites of Eva's/Sune's."

Nah, I see no reason we should be satisfied with that. I'll be back tomorrow with an update on this. The thread the question was posted on is now at the bottom of the list of Education threads. Threads can always be bumped back to the top, however, if someone is interested in them. Well, I am still interested in the source of those quotes.

Perhaps we will find that Sune has been updating his web site(s) with full source information on those quotes.