Child constantly getting into trouble at school

[CutiePatooties]

I posted a while ago about DD and we’re currently on a waiting list for an ADHD assessment (teacher knows, but SENDCO hasn’t organised a meeting with us yet).

her teacher keeps telling us she can’t sit still at the table, fidgets, leans across the table, gets up out of her chair, stares out of the window and just generally doesn’t listen. Teacher aware that I’m waiting on an ADHD assessment for her, but keeps saying it might be normal for a 6 year old. However, she’s like it at home and I explained even with getting dressed for school - if I say get ready! Or, grab your coat and shoes, she’ll either not do anything (as has daydreamed as I’ve said it) or she’ll bring back the coat and not the shoes as she can’t seem to process more than one thing at one time.

the problem is, her name is constantly moved down, we’re constantly being told that she’s doing these things and we’ve tried doing bits at home to help - reducing sensory stimulation, giving her small tasks around the home to help with focus, etc but she’s still the same. She now comes home saying she’s ‘stupid,’ ‘naughty,’ ‘no one likes her at school,’ ‘the teacher hates her,’ ‘she has no friends,’ ‘she’s rubbish.’ So I asked for pastoral support for her as I’m worried about her self esteem, however, we’re now being told she’s been unkind to 3 children yesterday and had her named moved down 3 times.

once for name-calling, once for saying she doesn’t want to play with another child and once for saying someone was on a ‘rubbish team.’ I’ve spoken to her about kindness and using kind words and asked her how she thinks these children feel when she says unkind things and I’ve also asked her to apologise to these children on Monday. (She told me she only said sorry to one of them).

I’m just feeling like an utter failure as a mum. It really got me down last night. I’m not sure how to make her engage (I asked for a meeting with SENDCO way before half term but not had one yet). I’m also not sure how to make her be kind to others… is it just by constantly having these chats with her? She didn’t seem to take any of it in though, this morning. She just kept saying when people are mean to her, the teacher never tells them off or moves their name down.

This parenting gig is tough. I know I’m probably coming across as silly for asking these things but she’s my first born so I’ve never dealt with any of this until now.

Firstly, you are not a rubbish mum, the problem is that the school is expecting your dd to do things that she can't (and not do things that she wants to do) then publicly shaming her.

In your position, I would recontact the senco reiterating the need for a meeting and proper intervention. Frame it in terms of the support that your dd needs to meet school expectations and improve her self-esteem. I would also, from experience, cc in either the head of KS1 or whoever is one up from the class teacher in the school hierarchy. Mention wanting to ensure that appropriate support is in place before DD moves into the next school year.

The moving names down is utterly shite classroom management. All is does is shame kids who find classroom situations stressful. The research indicates that praise is a far better way to reinforce desirable behaviour.

Also, I wouldn't mention saying sorry to other children on Monday. Forced apologies just cause resentment, make the kid feel isolated and unsupported and drag out situations unnecessarily. Tbh, it is very possible that the teacher does overly notice your dd's behaviour - if she thinks that the way to address it is to keep pointing out what a child is doing wrong then she's bound to.

Rather than talk to your dd about being kind, I would ask her how she feels when she's called names, when her name is 'moved down' and what's going on when she says things like 'your team is rubbish'. She may not be able to articulate it, but those types of behaviour come from a place if low self-esteem, lack of confidence and feeling unsupported.

That's what the adults around your dd need to focus on addressing.

Sorry, bit long but I hope a bit helpful!

@Windowcleaning thank you SO much! Yes, extremely helpful - I’ll send an email.

I’ll have a chat with DD and find out where this is all coming from and hopefully can have a meeting with the SENDco soon, if I just send them a gentle nudge.

You are not a rubbish mum, look at all the energy you are investing in trying to get school to help your DD.

She cannot process more than one task, which may be ADHD executive function deficit or may be normal 6yo behaviour. Either way, accept it at home and plan around it - you'll be showing her that we can use tools to help us do things we're not so good at (yet). Tools here might be a checklist for getting ready by the front door, or you giving instructions one by one. When this is working, move to asking her what's next and give her lots of praise when she's correct.

I agree with speaking to her about how she feels - the Usborne Book of Feelings is good for this type of talk.

@UniversalTruth thank you, they all sound like fantastic ideas, so will definitely give them a go at home!

I’ve just purchased the book, so fingers crossed this helps too. Thank you so much.

The other thing I would add is that in my experience, school tell you things that they have to tell you, but it's actually their job to solve. This includes things like not paying attention in class, fidgeting. You can suggest ideas for them to try which is usually best if you've tried them at home but could be another angle to get SENCO attention - "we've tried blu-tac/wobble cushion/activity breaks at home for homework and it really helps so how could these work in the classroom?".

It's hard work getting the right support in place but it took me a long time to realise that when school tell me about incidents, I'm not expected to go home and put in place a single measure that will solve school behaviour.

You aren't failing as a parent. The school are failing. I would pull my child out of a school that still uses such outdated and ridiculous behaviour management strategies (moving names down in a visual display).

No 6 year olds are always kind. It is very common for them to have no filter and say something rude without thinking. Keep on reinforcing kindness and she will get there.

Some kids are noticed more than others. Does she explain to the teacher when others are being mean to her? Sometimes an adult will only see the end of an incident so need to know what happens before the bit they saw.

People are 'kind' when they feel kindly treated. It's ridiculous to expect a child who is publicly humiliated every day at school to be kind to children who aren't. It's very, very frustrating for children to be continually told what they've done wrong, with no attempts made to understand what was going on for the child. One of my children would never 'tell' on another child or argue back that eg other children had also done the very thing that he was being told off about.

Unsurprisingly, adults no doubt unintentionally, recognised that he was a very easy child to tell off so did so lots! Less so children who were happy to 'tell' on others, burst into tears, make things complicated by giving their version of events etc.

OP, it would be worth looking at the school's behaviour policy. Honestly, if the moving names down is a formal classroom management strategy, it's years out of date.

Regardless, it's clearly not having the desired effect on your dd (supporting her to meet classroom expectations) so it might help to ask the school if they're intending to pursue something that is obviously counterproductive.

Best of luck. In my experience, you may need to be persistent, but I think it does help to bear in mind that when the teacher informs you of dd's transgressions in the future, you can respond by asking what else they have in mind to try and as pp says, suggest anything that you find helps at home.

@Windowcleaning that’s definitely the school’s behaviour policy.
@WheelsUp at the first parent’s evening the teacher said DD tells tales and will say a child has done something, but they haven’t. DD said she doesn’t tell her when others are mean to her now. Perhaps DD has lied too many times about others and now feels like she won’t be listened to… or perhaps DD is lying to me? Who knows.
@Pinkflipflop85 I had no idea this was outdated behaviour management. What do they do nowadays then?
@UniversalTruth that’s a good point. I’m still at the stage where the school tell me something and I instantly try to work out what I’m supposed to do about it all. Just messaged the school giving the SENDco a nudge and the feelings book has been bought, as DD still can’t explain why she’s been unkind to others.

As others have said, @CutiePatooties, the school doesn't sound great, but also, the world of SEN parenting is just one long wretched battle to get institutions to behave lawfully.

Have a read about reasonable adjustments under the Equality Act and have a look at the SEN Code of Practice. That will give you an idea of what the school should be doing. Punishing/humiliating a child for behaviour arising from a long term functional incapacity, condition or disability is potentially unlawful (not recommending you pursue a legal route, just that you understand their obligations in this situation). I would ask for an adjustment to the behaviour policy when you meet the SENCO. Good luck!

@francesthebadger thank you! How does that work with a child who is waiting for an assessment and a teacher who says they might just be acting like a normal 6 year old?
As these two things make me think nothing will be done until she gets a diagnosis.

Exactly! It's really hard to get the appropriate things out in place at school. An occupational therapist assessment may help if you can afford it as then they will liaise with school about suitable interventions. Schools in my opinion don't seem to be that clued up on things like this.

Behaviour policies should be based on praise and positive reinforcement. They should also include warnings so that children have opportunity to modify their behaviour. Interventions should involve teaching and guiding a child to make different choices eg 'we don't call each other names as it hurts feelings'.

Also, not wanting to play with a particular child isn't bad behaviour!

It might not be wise to be too focused on DD receiving a diagnosis. Imvhe, it's still a battle to get schools to make adjustments and actually stick to them. She needs support now.

Excellent advice, here.

@Windowcleaning thank you so, so much for taking the time to post all of this. You’ve been a massive help to me! I did wonder why her name got moved down for not wanting to play with a child, although I can only assume how she told the child must’ve been bad. It’s hard, as she goes to after school club for an hour after school, we are only getting messages about her behaviour via her contact book. So we never get details. Just notes like, ‘DD has been nasty today,’ ‘DD has been unkind,’ ‘DD didn’t listen in class’ then told her name has moved down x amount of times. Hubby is getting frustrated by it and says he’s going to ask for a meeting with the teacher, although I’m not sure if that’s a good idea.

Oh and the detail of her fidgeting, moving on the carpet, leaning over the table, daydreaming, easily distracted, getting up out of the chair, loudest in the class, making silly mistakes as she’s not focussing etc are the bits we get told at every parents’ evening.
she starts with, ‘she’s clever and has so much potential, but ….’ (Cue ten minutes of being told your child is no good). That, plus the notes in the contact book almost every other day, it’s just getting me down. More importantly, it’s totally having an effect on her self-esteem. She’s never said ‘I’m stupid,’ or that ‘everyone hates me,’ before.

I'm sure that it is getting you, your dd and dh down - it's utterly shite being told what your child is doing wrong as it they can just decide to behave completely differently.

A meeting with the class teacher would probably be best after you have had a proper discussion with the Senco, it may be that the Senco invites the classroom teacher to the meeting in any event.

Is the teacher quite new to the profession by any chance? Those contact books notes sound like she's a bit out of her depth.

I would suggest that you reflect the content of the home school notebook back to school - because all the things she is being told off for sounds like ADHD symptoms. So it is clear there is something going on. Schools should put support in place based on need not diagnosis so ask if she is on the Sen register. Ask what support they have put in place to help her with the things they say she is struggling with. If she is fidgeting, are they giving movement breaks? Fidget toys? Is she sat in the right place in the classroom?

Have a look to see if your local authority have a document called "ordinarily available inclusive practice". This is the list of things that class teachers can do within the classroom to support children with additional needs. All schools should be using this as the basis for classroom support.

Has she got any good friends? or can you try and matchmake her some( in or out of school)?- school life can be more bearable with a friend.
Just generally try to increase positive vibes for her. What does she enjoy? Do more of that.
Other things we found useful were reflecting how any negative language or behaviour at home made us feel back to the child ie when you said x it made me feel sad etc. No punishment just done calmly- restorative. This made a massive diff eventually.
With school try and get teacher on board make sure they know you are doing everything and then some to improve the situation. Make them feel you are working as a team with them- even if you have to pretend. May result in Teacher will be more positively disposed to your daughter.
Also we split the day into 3 parts ( morning til lunch- lunch til tea and eve). If no aggression there was reward/praise for each part which allowed for imperfection and encouraged good behaviour and involved school( i just asked how was the day at end of each school day- teacher knew why.)
Hope some of this may be helpful.
And yes as other have already said- you are a really good parent you love your child. ( we never got a diagnosis- tried but child was too intelligent and no support where we lived for anyone unless failing academically.)
Anyway before you know it your wonderful daughter will be all grown up and a fabulous human being ... and I remember all too well the pain the fear the worry the frustration of having a child who didn't fit the 'normal boxes' of society and school life and is now a fabulous human and a pleasure to know.
I pass on to you the baton of Hope!

You should have a meeting with the SENCO. Tell them exactly what your DD says and how she feels, make a list of all the behaviours you witness at home, offer suggestions of things that you have found work and yes, request adjustments for your DD. What they are doing is obviously not working, in fact it's just making things worse.

Will she have a new teacher next year? I really hope so. Poor kid.

For goodness sake l am a teacher of many years and if l was to write down everything children say to each other my arm would fall off! Do you think they are telling you all this so they have a good record of everything to back up their suspicion of ADHD. Otherwise its too much.
I agree with the suggestion of getting an OT on board. Child should have a special cushion to sit on, movement breaks , maybe a sloped table etc. All thing that might help. I remember an OT saying it's an impossibily for that child to sit still. It's like expecting someone with a broken leg to run. They need more compassion and to put more things in place.

Hey @CutiePatooties. I've had a strong reaction to your OP, because it reminds me of what DS went through when he was in Year 1. This was the year that (with hindsight) his ADHD became evident. The other children had come along and were sitting still in class, able to follow the teacher's instructions etc. - and he couldn't do those things.

Like your DD, he had a terrible teacher. He was stigmatised as a "naughty boy," lost all his friends, and started coming home and telling us he was "stupid" and an"idiot." He went from being a happy and confident boy to a broken shell.

So I very much sympathise with your situation, as I have also been there!

Knowing what I know now, this is what I would do in your shoes.

1. Clarify where that ADHD referral is at. It isn't clear from your post. School (I.e. SenCo) have to make that referral. Has that definitely happened? Where are you in the system? (P.S. well done for getting the ball rolling so early - it took me longer to get this far, and DS wasn't referred until Y3.)

1. Insist on a meeting with the SENCo urgently. If you aren't getting anywhere, escalate to the Head. Do everything on email so there is a record/trail.

1. Demand your DD's name is taken off that stupid, shitty name rank thing. They won't like it. Clearly if it is having an adverse effect on your child's mental wellbeing, it is not fit for purpose. DS' school didn't have anything as bad as that, but they did have a watered-down version: a traffic light system (guess whose name ended up on the red square most days)? If I had my time again I'd bound in after school and remove his name personally!

1. Know that once you have a diagnosis, your child's experience may change dramatically- and if it does, it will be for the better. This was our experience: lots of accommodations made, a plan in place. Like night and day.

1. That said... I still regret not removing him in Year 1. I wish I'd sent him to the other local primary school, which has a better rep for SEN. It's been such a struggle to start rebuilding his confidence.

Hope this helps

@junebirthdaygirl it can’t be due to trying to build a picture/evidence to put forward to help with ADHD diagnosis, as her teacher just thinks it’s all typical behaviour of a 6 year old and isn’t accepting that DD may have ADHD. I went to her twice about it and in the end she just said, ‘talk to the SENDCO as she knows more.’ I asked to arrange a meeting with the SENDCo but got no response so I’ve emailed again today.
@AngryGreasedSantaCatcus she’ll have a different teacher for next year, thank God.
@chickflick aww how lovely, thank you and thanks for all of your advice - we don’t split the day into 3 parts, so I’m definitely going to do that! Makes it easier for her to achieve a reward that way. We are doing things to help and have told the teacher we’re on board to help manage her behaviour etc so that hasn’t made a difference with how the teacher responds to her.
@handmademitlove I asked what has been put in place to help DD and listed things they could use and the teacher said she doesn’t need any of that, it’s probably just typical 6yo behaviour and if I still think it’s ADHD I should talk to the SENDCO as they know more.’
@Windowcleaning this is her 3rd year of teaching.

@PizzazzRoxyStorma ah, this made me emotional. I’m so sorry that your son had to be subjected to that and well done you for being his champion and fighting for his needs to be met. I feel like I’m not doing a great job of fighting for DD’s needs to be met currently and being told your child is ‘unkind’ ‘nasty’ isn’t great either. I came home thinking, well, her actions were unkind but SHE isn’t unkind as a person. Her actions may have been nasty, but no, she’s not a nasty child. Definitely feel the label of ‘naughty child’ has been firmly stamped on her forehead. She’s getting a reputation now as well, I think. Due to the fact that her teacher sometimes passes on these messages to the women who run after school club or she’s told us about DD’s ‘off-task’ behaviour in front of other members of staff. One staff member even said, ‘oh, she wouldn’t have fun being in my class, as I wouldn’t allow that.’ Which shocked me. I turned and said that I’m putting her through for an ADHD assessment and that’s when again, the teacher said she doesn’t think it’s that. I’m not a fan of her saying these things to us in front of staff who aren’t involved, but this could be me being miffed at the teacher and looking for reasons to be more annoyed with it all.

oh, the school haven’t done anything yet. GP called, I spoke about DD’s symptoms, he said he will refer her for an assessment and that the waiting list is very long. Didn’t tell me what else I should do, so I assumed we just wait for a letter or phone call?

OP in the nicest way possible, you need to start standing up for your daughter. Do complain when needed for example comments in front of other staff, or worse parents. Or messages being passed through other members of staff not involved. She has a right to confidentiality.

Does the teacher make these comments in front of DD too? If so ,that's awful.

You also need to be more forceful fighting for your daughter's needs to be met. It's irrelevant if the teacher doesn't believe it. She's not trained to diagnose ADHD. At most she can have an opinion. Her opinion however does not trump your child'd needs and how miserable she is at the moment. If your daughter was waiting for a diabetes diagnosis/blood test would you let the teacher feed her cake every lesson every day because she thinks your DD is fine? Of course you wouldn't.

If you're going to have a meeting with the SENCO , ask for them to send for a referral too and to start implementing strategies now.

Stop worrying about what they might think or say about you, and focus on how they're making your daughter feel-which is not ok.

Tbh, some of the things you say , if they're a general school culture rather than a single teacher , make me think that school might not be the right environment for your child, diagnosis or not.