Child constantly getting into trouble at school

[CutiePatooties]

I posted a while ago about DD and we’re currently on a waiting list for an ADHD assessment (teacher knows, but SENDCO hasn’t organised a meeting with us yet).

her teacher keeps telling us she can’t sit still at the table, fidgets, leans across the table, gets up out of her chair, stares out of the window and just generally doesn’t listen. Teacher aware that I’m waiting on an ADHD assessment for her, but keeps saying it might be normal for a 6 year old. However, she’s like it at home and I explained even with getting dressed for school - if I say get ready! Or, grab your coat and shoes, she’ll either not do anything (as has daydreamed as I’ve said it) or she’ll bring back the coat and not the shoes as she can’t seem to process more than one thing at one time.

the problem is, her name is constantly moved down, we’re constantly being told that she’s doing these things and we’ve tried doing bits at home to help - reducing sensory stimulation, giving her small tasks around the home to help with focus, etc but she’s still the same. She now comes home saying she’s ‘stupid,’ ‘naughty,’ ‘no one likes her at school,’ ‘the teacher hates her,’ ‘she has no friends,’ ‘she’s rubbish.’ So I asked for pastoral support for her as I’m worried about her self esteem, however, we’re now being told she’s been unkind to 3 children yesterday and had her named moved down 3 times.

once for name-calling, once for saying she doesn’t want to play with another child and once for saying someone was on a ‘rubbish team.’ I’ve spoken to her about kindness and using kind words and asked her how she thinks these children feel when she says unkind things and I’ve also asked her to apologise to these children on Monday. (She told me she only said sorry to one of them).

I’m just feeling like an utter failure as a mum. It really got me down last night. I’m not sure how to make her engage (I asked for a meeting with SENDCO way before half term but not had one yet). I’m also not sure how to make her be kind to others… is it just by constantly having these chats with her? She didn’t seem to take any of it in though, this morning. She just kept saying when people are mean to her, the teacher never tells them off or moves their name down.

This parenting gig is tough. I know I’m probably coming across as silly for asking these things but she’s my first born so I’ve never dealt with any of this until now.

'Stop telling tales' is so unhelpful. The usual approach is to teach/encourage children to say 'stop, I don't like it' or something similar to the other child unless it's a serious situation eg violence in which case telling an adult is the right thing to do.

This really resonates with me. I am a teacher and I have a son who sounds just like your child. I'm not going to lie to you, every September to Easter has been a struggle and then suddenly he matures and catches up and the problems stop. We have tried so many things to help him to be organised and maintain his learning behaviours but I have to admit that not one single thing we did as parents was successful.

Instead, after things coming to a head and him refusing to go to school we gave our heads a wobble and decided to approach it entirely differently. He's a nice kid, friendly and kind. He has a passion for life and the things that interest him but gives little to no fucks about the things that don't. We decided to step back and let school deal with school behaviour and we deal with home behaviour. We don't put pressure on him to achieve academically and we don't remind him to take the stuff he needs each day. Now, most days, he remembers his stuff. He has taken responsibility for tracking his reads and ensuring he has enough. He packs his own bag and takes the responsibility.

I had been asking him and trying to help him to do this for years. Stepping back and letting him fall a few times enabled him to do it himself. He still daydreams. He still gets told off from time to time tor losing his school equipment. But it's a blip in his day rather than the existential crisis it used to be because he doesn't have everyone "on him" about the same things he struggles with.

And let's face it. A few weeks ago I accidentally went to work in my pyjama too so the apple doesn't fall far from the tree

*Pyjama top

Lots of this is for school to work on but in terms of this:

I’m also not sure how to make her be kind to others… is it just by constantly having these chats with her?

The answer is essentially yes, you do have to constantly have these chats with your daughter. It's frustrating, annoying and soul destroying at times, but it's how you set boundaries and how she understands what's expected of her.

You should ask for reasonable adjustments with the name being moved down, as she has a suspected disability.
This is an awful 'behaviour management' tool tbh- it uses shame and only works on the children who don't need it. You should ask to see the schools send and behaviour policy as she should have an individual support plan. Get the school sendco involved

@pinkberet lol I agree about the apple and the tree lol I’m constantly losing things and hardly ever know what day it is lol! You’re right about not getting on at her and we don’t about the focusing etc stuff but we obviously need to sort out the unkind behaviour and I will keep having chats with her about how to be kind and how it feels when people are unkind etc. Anything related to suspected ADHD we don’t mention to DD. In the begin I used to, but she’d become frustrated. Her daydreams are scary to me - like I will call her name and she won’t answer, so I’ll come up to her face and say her name and she just stares blankly like I’m not there. It’s almost like a vacant seizure. You have to touch her for her to notice you’re there. Is that common for children with ADHD, as I’ve not read about that.
@RedToothBrush thank you. I already started this today and will be continuing with it.
@Unexpectedlysinglemum we’ve emailed asking to meet with teacher and sendco and explained all the issues. Now just have to wait for that meeting but I will mention the behaviour policy.

Is she also hyperactive? If not, it could be ADD - attention deficit disorder. It could also be a maturity thing.

Random question. Does she mouth breathe at night? Could be a sleep issue where she is not getting enough deep sleep, causing vagueness and tiredness during the day. Mouth breathing is an indicator of this and could be down to tonsils/adenoids.

The kindness and empathy comes. I promise. Kids are egocentric and gentle correction and ongoing conversations do help - how would you feel if I said... to you? Do you think that was a kind thing to say etc

Daydreaming is a dyslexic trait.
But ADHD and dyslexia are linked.

Imagine being rubbish at school all the time - it builds resentment and behaviour all issues - your DD needs a really understanding teacher, one who is extra positive and inclusive.

So we had the meeting…

They are going to implement things - sensory circuit for morning and after lunch, reward chart, task management board, she’s got her self-esteem workshop with the pastoral lead etc.

What I did find very telling, was the way in which her teacher spoke about her: ‘she annoys others,’ ‘she’s nasty’ ‘she’s unkind,’ ‘she chooses not to listen or do the work,’ ‘she’s capable of sticking things in, but didn’t this afternoon, so only had one task done,’ ‘she told me another child called her a name and I wasn’t there so didn’t witness anything, but the child is timid so I would say your DD wasn’t being quite honest.’

My DH got angry and asked if DD was the only child who displays unkind behaviour and her teacher said, ‘yes, she’s the only one.’ Then he said ‘out of 27 kids, DD is the only one to ever be unkind to another kid?’ And she said, ‘yes.’

Her teacher really let us know what she thinks of DD today!

Sounds like you have a bit of a teacher problem!!
Luckily it’s the end of the year, new strategies are being implemented, so hopefully your DD will start to feel better about herself.

Was there anyone else in that meeting? Did they say anything?

Definitely a teacher problem.

Put yourself in her shoes - imagine being in a class where the teacher clearly dislikes her for 30 hours a week - I’d be complaining - write it all down

Look up the complaints procedure and use it.

@Littlemissprosecco yes, I’m glad something is being implemented now and DD is crossing the days off on her calendar for when summer begins!
when her teacher mentioned how she didn’t stick the work in, I told her yes, as I said… she can’t process too many steps at one time, so you have to break down your instructions into manageable steps and she said, ‘she just had to cut pictures and stick them into two different categories.’ Then I said, ‘exactly- that’s 3 steps in one instruction.’ Her teacher just shrugged! Then later repeated herself saying, ‘she didn’t even stick pictures in earlier when I told her to!’ It was very difficult to remain calm and DH wasn’t calm tbh - at one point I had to interject in fear of us being thrown out.

@AngryGreasedSantaCatcus her superior was in the meeting- a deputy head who is also the SENDCO and KS1 lead, so had the best person there with us. She’s the one who came up with all of the implementations.

@Itsanotherhreatday you are absolutely right and that’s why I got very emotional during the meeting. When I told her teacher about her self-esteem being low and how she’s coming home saying she’s ‘stupid,’ and that ‘the teachers don’t like me,’ ‘my class don’t like me,’ ‘I wish I was someone else,’ etc… Her teacher - instead of saying, ‘I’m sorry to hear she feels that way,’ or ‘maybe we can implement things to help her with her self-esteem,’ just responded with, ‘well that’s funny, because that’s how she speaks to the other children in the class.’

She didn’t suggest anything that should be implemented and looked like she didn’t really want to be there. She kept referring to DD as nasty, rather than DD’s behaviour being nasty, so I pulled her up on that and said that I don’t believe any child is nasty, they can exhibit some nasty or unkind behaviour, but the child as a whole is not nasty. We are working on how to be kind to others and I remind her every morning about kind words/kind hands, but her self-esteem is so rock-bottom that she’s just projecting how she feels onto her peers at the moment. We had no issues with her being ‘unkind’ or ‘nasty’ to any child in reception!

Thanks for taking the time to update, CutiePatooties.

Yep, definitely a teacher problem - she sounds utterly out of her depth and utterly miserable for your dd to be in her class.

As it felt that the classroom teacher didn't want to be there (and why would she if she thinks the only solution is that your dd have a personality transplant) make sure that any further correspondence is cc-ed to the Senco. In fact, the Senco should be your first port of call going forward as it sounds like she has some sort of handle on the situation.

In all honesty, I wouldn't feel comfortable with my child being in a classroom with a teacher of Y1 who believes, and is prepared to state in front of the child's parents and her manager, that my child is the only one who is ever 'unkind' to other children. That's scapegoating 101.

I'm afraid that in this situation, I would be THAT parent and email the Senco separately, outline my concerns about the teacher's approach and attitude to dd and express concern that if the teacher doesn't get that dd needs adjustments, then I'm quite concerned that she'll be able to implement them in any meaningful way. I say this because it's your dd's self-esteem at stake, not because I want to give a random teacher a hard time.

A slightly off piste idea - is the school a multi-form entry, in which case, would your dd be able (or willing) to move to another class for the rest of Y1? I get that it's not ideal and it's disruptive to dd, but the relationship with her teacher sounds utterly toxic for her and even a few more weeks is a few weeks too many.

Unless you got a sense that the teacher had taken on board some of what you and the Senco said, in which case it's probably more of a 'hang in there and it will be over soon' situation.

@Windowcleaning I will only be communicating with the sendco from now on, as I can’t see me being able to deal with her teacher any more. I’ve sat and reflected on the day in the life of DD and ended up sobbing. Her teacher sees her as an unkind, nasty child who is defiant. She can’t possibly be nurturing DD when she has such a negative view of her. I’m still in shock that she said all of this….

well the sensory circuits and self-esteem workshops are organised by other people so that’ll be fine. We are getting a photocopy of the daily reward chart at the end of every day, so we’ll see straight away, if that’s being used in a meaningful way. The task management board is my only worry, but I’ll email the sendco and let her know my concerns around that.

DH wants her to move class, but I can’t see them doing that, plus we’re so close to the end of the year. If things don’t improve by the end of next week (as in, we can’t see DD feeling better in herself) then I’ll just pull her out of school for the remainder of this term, on the grounds of safeguarding her mental health.

That sound sensible - what a horrible situation for your dd and your family.

GAAAHHHH- NEED TO RANT!!!

so her teacher filled in her reward chart for yesterday and told us she got up out of her seat during two lessons and was disrupting others. I asked if she’d done the sensory circuit or if they’ve implemented the task management board yet and she said no. Grumble.

They implemented sensory circuit this morning, but not the one after lunch (that’s starting next week) and when I asked about the task management board her teacher said ‘we give her the step-by-step instructions’ so I was like, you’ve not implemented that then. She said not that specifically, but we are giving her instructions step-by-step. Grumble.

I’ve asked her not to report off-task behaviour until she actually implements everything we’ve agreed upon. I mentioned that she can’t expect a change in DD’s action without implementations, as that’s like continually putting the same input but expecting a different output.

DD ended the day saying to her teacher, ‘I haven’t always been bad, I’ll try not to be bad any more and tomorrow I’ll be someone new.’

absolutely bawled my eyes out at home-time. I’m seriously considering keeping her off now until year 2 starts and sending an email to let them know why I’m doing this. The reward chart in and of itself is a joke - as I asked what reward DD earns after having a good day and her teacher said that she gets to stamp the chart…. That’s hardly an incentive anyway. I’m starting to think homeschooling might be the way forward!!!

Oh dear. I think you may need to stick it out till the end of the year. I think it's too late in the year to make a significant change in how this teacher does things. Have you met next year's teacher yet? When's move up day?

The teacher is the problem here, they think your DD is just being naughty/lazy etc. That’s clear from the “normal 6 year old” comments.

I had quite a similar situation when my DS was 6 and in Year 1. Name moved on to the naughty storm cloud all the time. I had no idea this outdated system was still in place either and I pointed out to the teacher that it creates a negative perception about the child amongst the class and that’s only going to exacerbate undesirable behaviour. Bet she loved me 😬but it seemed to work and they switched to another system at the end of the term.

DS is now finishing Year 2 and has had a much better year. It could be because he’s matured, but also because he has had a much more patient teacher and we have had regular dialogue with school and the SENCO.

Not sure how your DD’s motor skills are but we’ve also found out my DS has dyspraxia as well as ADHD, not a total surprise but from the assessment his motor issues are worse than I thought, so as infuriating as it is when it takes him 100 years to respond/do anything, I can remind myself that his executive function and motor coordination is delayed, and helps keep me calm!

Wow. So sorry OP. I’m wondering if it’s the same teacher! We had the same with her claiming none of the other children in the class disrupted things or behaved that way. Honestly!

@CutiePatooties Heartbreaking. I feel like crying hearing your daughters words. I can't tell if you are seriously thinking of keeping her off school, but I would support that personally. I would ask the school if she can switch classrooms and if that is not an option then I would homeschool. I think this because it is the clearest message to your daughter that the teacher is wrong. It doesn't matter how many times you tell her, the actions of the teacher will win out. When my little one was excluded in Reception year from lunch time I told him he hadn't done anything wrong, but it was like chaff in the wind cos why was he being treated differently to everyone else if there was nothing wrong with him? He's been full time at his new school for the last year in year 1 and he's just started private therapy.

The teacher doesn't get it - she seems to have no understanding of how things through through the eyes of your dd (or you) and no desire to develop this.

Implementations are done as part of a strategy ie a plan. The odd ad-hoc thing isn't going to make a difference. Rewards should be instant, not at the end of the day.

I would email the school explaining that the things that were agreed haven't been implemented and that the teacher seems to see no connection between this and dd's classroom behaviour not changing. Tbh, from what you've said, a lot of her classroom behaviour is probably anxiety-driven now, as she's so used to being told off.

Is there a possibility that she could move to another classroom? Yes, it's disruptive for her, but if she could manage it, surely better to have a decent end to the year so that she can finish with the others and do the fun end of term things? Or maybe you both need a break now.

This is definitely a teacher not a dd problem.

The teacher sounds awful.

Make sure she's on SEN register

Ask SENCO who would be best teacher match for her in y2 and meet them before term end

Big up your DD at home as much as possible and find ways to boost her confidence outside school

Good luck

This is an old thread, I am deliberately bumping a ZOMBIE THREAD.

I just wondered how @CutiePatooties is now, did she find solutions, is her daughter happier at school?

Good to have updates.