Child constantly getting into trouble at school

[CutiePatooties]

I posted a while ago about DD and we’re currently on a waiting list for an ADHD assessment (teacher knows, but SENDCO hasn’t organised a meeting with us yet).

her teacher keeps telling us she can’t sit still at the table, fidgets, leans across the table, gets up out of her chair, stares out of the window and just generally doesn’t listen. Teacher aware that I’m waiting on an ADHD assessment for her, but keeps saying it might be normal for a 6 year old. However, she’s like it at home and I explained even with getting dressed for school - if I say get ready! Or, grab your coat and shoes, she’ll either not do anything (as has daydreamed as I’ve said it) or she’ll bring back the coat and not the shoes as she can’t seem to process more than one thing at one time.

the problem is, her name is constantly moved down, we’re constantly being told that she’s doing these things and we’ve tried doing bits at home to help - reducing sensory stimulation, giving her small tasks around the home to help with focus, etc but she’s still the same. She now comes home saying she’s ‘stupid,’ ‘naughty,’ ‘no one likes her at school,’ ‘the teacher hates her,’ ‘she has no friends,’ ‘she’s rubbish.’ So I asked for pastoral support for her as I’m worried about her self esteem, however, we’re now being told she’s been unkind to 3 children yesterday and had her named moved down 3 times.

once for name-calling, once for saying she doesn’t want to play with another child and once for saying someone was on a ‘rubbish team.’ I’ve spoken to her about kindness and using kind words and asked her how she thinks these children feel when she says unkind things and I’ve also asked her to apologise to these children on Monday. (She told me she only said sorry to one of them).

I’m just feeling like an utter failure as a mum. It really got me down last night. I’m not sure how to make her engage (I asked for a meeting with SENDCO way before half term but not had one yet). I’m also not sure how to make her be kind to others… is it just by constantly having these chats with her? She didn’t seem to take any of it in though, this morning. She just kept saying when people are mean to her, the teacher never tells them off or moves their name down.

This parenting gig is tough. I know I’m probably coming across as silly for asking these things but she’s my first born so I’ve never dealt with any of this until now.

@CutiePatooties ohhh no no no, I would not be a fan of that either. That's really not on! Please know this. It's utterly unacceptable behaviour by the school staff.

I don't think the teacher's reaction ("I don't think it's ADHD") is uncommon. We had exactly the same. I raised the possibility tentatively, once in Y1 and once in y2. Both times I was told this and given the impression I was being an over-anxious first-time parent. Now I realise the Y1 and Y2 teachers knew absolutely nothing about ADHD! When DS had his first assessment, the specialist told us he looked to be a classic case and she'd eat her hat if he didn't sail through the formal test with a positive diagnosis

What your GP said has confused me. Where we are, the referral has to come from the school - our GP was adamant about this. (Thank you to DS' Y3 teacher, who was wonderful and finally made it happen.) Perhaps it is different at different trusts. Either way, I'd check in with the GP and follow up like a hawk.

@AngryGreasedSantaCatcus okay, DH has emailed the school asking for a meeting with DD’s teacher, so we’ll make sure we’ll ask for her not to mention these things in front of other staff members and to not pass on messages through other staff. She’s never said any of these things in front of DD.

I’ve emailed the school asking for a meeting with the SENDCO so I’ll ask her to put things in place for DD and will ask about a referral.

well, DD did marvellously in reception. The teacher told us the same stuff about her not focussing, calling out etc but told us she has her own spot on the carpet and if she goes through carpet time not calling out, she can put the routine for the day up on the board (which DD loved as it made her feel important). She used to give rewards like that a lot and never said fidgeting was an issue, although I’d imagine they were all fidgets in reception 😂 we just never had a problem with her behaviour last year, so not sure if it is the school or the teacher, but I’m guessing it’s the teacher.

@PizzazzRoxyStorma ill ask for the school to make a referral when I have a meeting with the SENDCO and I’ll follow up with the GP. DH is going to arrange a meeting with her teacher, so he can let her know we do not want messages passed through other staff members or for her to speak about DD’s behaviour in front of other members of staff.

My son is 6 and has an ADHD diagnosis. He was excluded (illegally) for his entire reception year from midday every day. Even into the summer term I had to physically pick him up and carry him out some days as he couldn't understand why he was the only one not allowed to stay. (School reason was that he hurt adults and other children). This experience was very extreme, however it meant that we worked hard to find another school. We were lucky and of the 5 schools we looked at we found a progressive primary with a whole school approach to special needs. He joined in Sept year 1 in a mainstream classroom, with support and has been there all day, everyday this year. It's not plain sailing, but his life has been turned around. I am not saying you should move schools now (depending on senco and potentially different teacher next year), but know how different schools can be. I am on a parents of sen children support WhatsApp group in my borough and the biggest issues are where the child is not at a school that suits them. There is a parents of sen children forum on mums net I think - perhaps some ADHD specific threads? You may feel like you want to stand up for your child more, but actually sometimes it's just not the right school and it doesn't matter what you say or do (apart from leave!)

Hi OP. You are being far, far too nice. Three years in is an inexperienced teacher. Are you aware teachers get virtually no training on SEN? I've been teaching 12 years and what I've learnt parenting my ADHD daughter has been way more useful than the tiny bit of training I got.

Be aware that school SENCOs often have little training too.

Be aware that schools are often ignorant of best practice.

Could you afford a private ADHD assessment? They're about £900 round here. Find a local Facebook group for ADHD parents to get recommendations (Google your local authority name plus "local offer") or look on the listings of the ADHD charities. There is generally a waiting list for private services but it's months rather than years. If you'd be prepared to be flexible on location or could take a last minute cancellation, make that clear.

If your GP is helpful, they may be able to get you an NHS assessment via Choose and Book if you're prepared to travel.

Unfortunately, without a diagnosis, often no help is offered. That's not how it should be, but it's how it frequently is.

A book that you might find helpful is Smart But Scattered.

I am really worried by what the behaviour policy seems to be doing to your daughter's self-esteem. She is 6! She wouldn't even have started formal school in some countries.

@CutiePatooties neither SEN provision or protection under the Equality Act are actually dependent upon diagnosis. They relate respectively to having greater functional needs than other children and having or being expected to have long term functional incapacities. In practice, having sufficient evidence of day to day difficulties for a GP to have referred DC for an assessment is usually enough for a school (who have an anticipatory duty to make adjustments).

@Phineyj I’m worried about her self-esteem. She has been doing work with the pastoral lead, but the whole time her teacher is constantly telling her off in front of the other children, passing onto after school club what she’s been doing wrong etc I can’t see it changing.
We’ve asked for a meeting with the teacher and the SENDCO. DH is quite angry about it all, so I’m having to tell him to stay calm otherwise we will just look like THOSE parents!

So what if they think that? The teacher is not obviously worried about you thinking she is THAT TEACHER for belittling and ruining the self esteem of a 6 yo.

Angry is fine as long as there's no shouting, abuse etc. I have been angry with my DD's school a few times , I just put it all in calm, reasoned ,factual discussion. However I did make it perfectly clear that I'm not happy. I still have a good relationship with the school staff, including the head .

I also work in a school and sometimes I do fuck up , but I'm happy to explain my side, apologise when needed and try to do better and improve relationships. In fact in the two incidents that come to mind, I did rebuild trust and managed to have brilliant relationships with both the children and the parents. I've also seen the effects on children (especially children with SEN) who are treated like your DD has been and made to feel like that and almost always their behaviour just keeps deteriorating and their school work suffers until they are in a more supportive environment, that is focused on building them up. However , that leaves large gaps socially and academically that take a lot of time and effort to catch up on. Some kids never do.

Be THAT PARENT , because at the moment that's who your daughter needs you to be.

@AngryGreasedSantaCatcus ahh, that made my cry. I’m hoping we’ll get a response telling us we can have a meeting next week (as there’s only 6 weeks to go).

I’ll update what comes out from the meeting, on here. At the moment, academically, DD is at greater depth for reading and expected for maths and writing, so it hasn’t effected her education too much currently. Her self-esteem has massively been effected though… she was the loud, outgoing one who likes to be the centre of attention and used to have lots of friends. She’s currently still loud, but mentions she has no friends and that even the teachers don’t like her. She’s started being unkind to others with name-calling and calls herself stupid A LOT now. The past couple of days she’s shut herself in her bedroom and played on the computer, asking for us to leave her alone. It’s just al worrying and the pastoral support hasn’t helped with this as the teacher hasn’t seemed to adapt how she manages DD’s behaviour.
The more I type on here, the angrier I’m becoming. Think I have to write it all down in a factual way, point-by-point, what I need to say.
I have asked her teacher if she’s put anything in place like a task-management board (found this online) when she mentioned DD can’t focus on a task. She just told me DD doesn’t need any special provision put in place as she just acts like any other 6 yo. Very frustrating.

Hi OP, your poor kid. Can I suggest you write every school day left on a big piece of paper and have DD cross each day off with the thickest blackest marker pen after school?

And plan something really nice for the first day of the summer holidays.

(I do this with my most annoying classes 😂).

My daughter has had at school over the years: funky fingers club (fine motor skills), being sent on little missions to the photocopier and the office (for movement breaks), variation of homework, cancellation of homework, things to fiddle with in class, special seating in class, things to help organise her like laminated reminders and whiteboards, use of a laptop, one to ones with the SENCO, cubicle things around her desk to avoid distraction and (I thought this was genius) "blurt dessert" where if you visibly don't shout out 5 times you get points to redeem for a rich tea biscuit at home time!

Now this is a private school but it's a top 20 prep (if DH and I had known then what we know now, we wouldn't have sent her there) and there's no benefit to them actually from keeping her but they are decent people who want her to do well. Even though she will probably bring down their stellar stats a little bit.

Her self-esteem is excellent. She feels included and appreciated (unlike your DD, she's not academic but they've put photos of her performing etc outside school in the newsletter).

There is a lot schools can do if they want, as your reception teacher showed.

Your school will be aware this teacher is weak on this aspect. Although they will not admit that to you. You may also help some future child by politely and assertively drawing attention to what has happened.

Truth is, being a parent of a child with SEN, requires coming to terms with being 'that parent' because there will be plenty of ill informed or unkind people along the way who will treat DC as 'that child'. If they matter (eg. have potential to cause DC harm) then you have to challenge and try to get the narrative changed to something more compassionate and accepting of difference.

Yes, this is hard, and not a role any of us sought out. But there are resources and communities that can really help - with information and emotional support. Seek them out (including SEN boards here).

@Phineyj thank you SO much! I’ll ask if they can implement any of these things to try and help DD and how wonderful that your DD’s school has helped boost her self-esteem. It is my biggest worry here. Fingers crossed the meeting will go well and she’ll get the help she needs. im definitely going to have her cross off the days until the summer holidays and such a fab idea about doing something she loves on the first day - she’s asked to have her ears pierced, so think we’ll incorporate that into the first day 😊 she’s been begging me for months 😂

@francesthebadger I’ll check out the SEN boards - thank you. I think my worry stems from how DH is going to react more than anything. I’m trying to look at how to approach the school in a calm and logical manner, however, he keeps saying he’s going to ask the teacher why she hasn’t implemented anything and keeps repeating to us all the behaviours she’s not happy with, how her way of managing DD’s behaviour hasn’t been working so why hasn’t she adapted anything, how she passes on messages through other staff members and why hasn’t she kept things confidential and he keeps saying to me, ‘I’m so angry that she has told us the same stuff over and over again, when we’ve tried implementing things at home, but she’s still not changed how she manages DD at school. It’s not my job to manage DD’s behaviour at school, it’s her job, so why does she keep telling me the same stuff?’

He’s also picked up on the fact that DD was reading fluently at the end of reception and her reception teacher mentioned that she was an ‘exceptional reader,’ then when we had the first parent’s evening in year1 the teacher had her at expected. DH mentioned DD was passing phonics assessments and we were basically told, in a roundabout way, that she was greater depth for reading and the year1 teacher said anything from EYFS doesn’t count as it’s not part of the national curriculum, so not judged by the same standards (which made total sense to me).

However, DH asked her if EYFS was just a waste of time then and the yr1 teacher said ‘yes, basically.’ She then moved her up to greater depth once DD passed the year1 phonics screening and moved onto year2 books. So DH is also saying he’s going to mention that the yr1 teacher thinks EYFS is a waste of time 🙄 I’m not sure whether it’s worth me stopping DH from attending and just going in on my own, as he seems to have it in for her teacher at this point and even told me he hates her.

Just so not helpful to me, as I feel like I’m going to have to deal with this on my own if I want anything positive to come out of all of this.

No teacher worth their salt would say that eyfs is a waste of time!

@Pinkflipflop85 I entirely agree there, but I’m not sure mentioning it will help with what we need to resolve regarding DD. He’s just becoming angrier and angrier with the teacher and I feel like he just wants to offload everything she’s ever done or said to pee him off!

I'm getting confused. Is Dh referring to a different teacher (the year 1 who said eyfs was a waste of time) or does she have the same teacher in year 2?

I'm assuming she is in year 2 due to the fact you've said she's passed her phonics screening check.

@Pinkflipflop85 oh I’ve probably got the terms wrong - DD has had phonics assessments at different points in the year - think she’s had 2 and due another soon. It’s all the same teacher - her yr1 teacher. My apologies, I’m not sure of when they have screenings etc but do know she’s had assessments at various points in yr1.

Sorry I haven't time to read the whole thread -

What I will say is, you are not failing. The school is failing your child.

I went through through exactly this with one of mine. He missed half of Yr1 and Yr2 due to Covid and then was effectively bullied by his crap teacher all the way through his Y3 year.

My only regret now is not moving schools sooner.

Ask about locally on FB for schools with decent SEN provision. Most only give lip service to SEN.

My child is now thriving. Absolutely thriving. Within 6 months of being at the new school, they had done the correct assessments and pushed the right people to get an ADHD and ASD diagnosis and he's now on medication for his ADHD. Different child. Happy child. I literally cry with happiness now at this lovely amazing school he is at with amazing teachers.

You need to find one near you!

Whereabouts in the UK are you based? Someone on MN I'm sure will be able to recommend a great SEN primary school for you. It can still be a mainstream school, just one that knows how to get the best out of all children in their care.

The school seem to be giving contradictory messages. Either her behaviour is normal for a 6yr old - in which case why mention it and why not just do what they normally do? Or her behaviour stands out from the other children in the class and is in fact not the expected behaviour for the class. In which case what are they doing about it? They cannot have it both ways - either it is unusual for her age or it is not...

Exactly! Well said.

@handmademitlove what a fantastic point! I will certainly ask these questions when we’re in the meeting.

OP, it might be worth you and dh composing an email together to send to the classroom teacher, the Senco and whoever is one up the hierarchy from the classroom teacher or who in the SLT overviews SEN asap, even if they haven't got back to you about a meeting date.

This process will help you both be really, really clear about what the issues are and what action you would like the school to take. Reiterate/summarise all the issues you've noticed with dd at home (as per your first post), that you've relayed them to the teacher, contacted the Senco, waiting for assessment etc. Explain exactly as you have here the effect that the notes home saying the same thing don't help dd's self-esteem or have any positive effect on her behaviour, don't help you to support her to meet school expectations etc. Also refer them to dd's report at the end of EYFS - unfortunately, she hasn't received the necessary support to transition to the different expectations in Y1 and her self-esteem is plummeting - what are they going to do about it before and into Y2? (Okay, not quite that bluntly!)

Give them examples of what you dd says about school as per your first post. Refer to the Equality Act and reasonable adjustments etc

This will help you and dh have a really good oversight of the situation and give the school staff a fuller idea of your experiences and position. The meeting should start with addressing the points that you've raised, not you having to explain it all to them.

Offer to scan and send dd's contact book to illustrate the volume and unhelpfulness of what's been written etc.

Good luck. As others have been said, being THAT PARENT is absolutely necessary at times. Think of it as you and dh helping them to do fulfil their statutory obligations in an improved way if you like.

PS don't let them kick it into the long grass with a 'see how things go in Y2' line. You and you dd need a plan much sooner than that.

That's a great idea about scanning the contact book (you can get phone apps that scan for you if you don't have a printer that scans). Also paste all emails into one Word doc. It will be useful background evidence for EHCP (be warned, if you ever need to do a tribunal, you'll need the auto indexing function on Adobe...soooo much paperwork...)

Just remembered that one specific thing the school did for us (after we went in and met the Head) was that she directed ASC to do some reading and homework with DD (she was too young for formal homework club and it was causing dreadful extended screaming at home). So if the ASC leader is a helpful person that could be another person to get on side.

Two things re your husband. Avoid shouting at the school especially a month before the end of the school year. It'll just get their backs up and the teacher might be even more horrible to DD. Secondly, does he possibly have ADHD himself? It's highly heritable. Maybe this is all a bit triggering for him.

Did I recommend that book 'Smart But Scattered'? It has parent questionnaires in that can be quite enlightening.

I k ow you’ve had a lot of advice, but I will add a lot of those behaviour a are Dyslexic behaviours

Look at it this way - you daughter is being punished for her disability - imagine moving a child in a wheel chair down on the board because they didn’t join in a running race? This is what your DD is facing - and just to add most teachers do 1/2 day training in special needs - that is supposed to cover all types of disability.

The self esteem is massive issue for dyslexic children - they need a different approach.

good luck , you’re going to need it!

once for name-calling, once for saying she doesn’t want to play with another child and once for saying someone was on a ‘rubbish team.’

I would be doing some role-play social situations with her at home. You can pretend to be the other person and she says what she said to them. That way you can try to unpick what’s going on/how she’s feeling when she’s saying these things and make some suggestions for other things she could have said. You could rehearse situations with her. She clearly is finding this area very difficult, so may need those skills to be explicitly taught and modelled to her.

@Windowcleaning thank you so much! We’ve sent the email.
@Phineyj I’ve purchased the book- thank you so much for the recommendation. DH not diagnosed with anything, but now you mention it, I definitely think it is triggering for him. He was labelled the ‘naughty kid’ throughout the whole of his schooling and even got the cane quite a few times during secondary school!
@Shinyandnew1 thank you, I’ve followed your advice and we eventually got to the bottom of why she said those things and I’ve had a chat with her about using kind words and asked her for examples of kind things she can say and do etc. She did mention a girl has been mean to her at school, but she doesn’t want to tell the teacher as the teacher tells her to stop telling tales. So we’ve also told her to tell someone if she also gets called names, as I’m sure that isn’t helping. Think we will have to have lots of these chats about how we can use our words and actions to be kind to others and how good it feels when people are kind to us and how we can pass this feeling on etc. I’ve bought the Usborne book of feelings, so I’m hoping that will help too.