Eltham College Blackheath Prep Merger

[TJsAunt]

Just announced. So many questions - they claim both schools will remain as they are but surely there will be changes? Worrying...

EC is now a very oversubscribed school due to recently going Co-Ed?

If the years coming up to GCSEs now are the final years of all boys and the school may have struggled to get bums on seats in those years, surely it follows that it is reasonably foreseeable that their grades won’t be as good? Because for those years, the school was less selective. If less kids apply, there is less competition.

There are some really popular well known schools listed in that Daily Mail article including in the state sector. I doubt anyone is going to not apply to Tiffin now because of this or Putney High? Cardiff Sixth Form College, for example, has always been known for top A level results. Some people may see this as a good thing- schools who put their own pupils’ interest first in a pandemic?

Dulwich College is a great school, but yes, the boys being targeted and mugged for their phones is a well known rumour that has been going around for years.

On the subject of Rugby, who knows how long schools will continue to play contact rugby. Recently, there have been lots of schools worried about the health and safety implications so it looks like Tag may be the future anyway or specific insurances. It is certainly something many schools in all sectors are looking at closely at the moment.

There will be annoyed parents in every school. There are always more annoyed parents when schools implement big changes like going Co-Ed.

@WannaBeAYummyMummy @Intergalacticcatharsis
Well said, both!

@Intergalacticcatharsis i think you’ve got the wrong end of the rugby and TAG comments? TAG is teacher assisted grades not Tag rugby?

EC had great results pre Covid when it was single sex- so the poor results at GCSE and A level in 2022 are difficult to explain.

EC is not more over subscribed than any other local independent school?

I have never said anything about Mottingham being an unsafe area? Nowhere in S London is immune from mugging a.

EC is massively oversubscribed! Not sure about this year but last year, the queue winding its way out from reception during open day was insane! I've dropped my kids off for their compulsory open day tour guide duties and I've never seen anything like it! I think there was at least 1,000 families (as opposed to 300 or so a pre-Covid and before co-ed, which was still oversubcribed for the places available)! Not saying everyone then went on to apply but my guess is that many did. Certainly didn't seem to be many places left for external boys once the junior lot moved up and girls came in.

I'm sure Dulwich gets lots of applications too but they are trading on a long history/tradition and are closer to London too.

Every kid is applying to 4 or 5 places though? Queues during open day are meaningless as surely many families look at several schools before deciding where to apply?

I honestly don't know any kids who didn't get into EC if it was their first choice.

Why are you so defensive about this?

@TJsAunt - no I didn’t get the wrong end of the stick regarding Rugby. I was merely pointing out that contact rugby may become a thing of the past, even for schools like Eltham College due to the risk of injury.

A neighbour mentioned EC gets 10 applications for every place at 11 plus. Clearly this is anecdotal, but I have no reason to not believe that to be true. Of course it is easier to get in at 7 plus and stay.

@TJsAunt I'm not defensive - but like to be factual - but I still wonder what is your skin in the game? Are you an admissions tutor at one of the other schools e.g. Colfe's, St Dunstan, Dulwich? ;)

EC was/is very oversubscribed. I heard of friends' whose sibling sons did not get a place even though highly academic (passing Bexley/Kent etc). I think there was probably only a small handful of places for boys this year. Of course they're keen to attract girls but these are bright sparks too. Many had places at other academic schools (e.g. Newstead Woods, TOGS, Alleyn's, City etc) but chose EC, possibly due to location or having a sibling there already. Not everyone wants to travel for hours each day! Many boys joining senior school have in the past turned down St Olave's, Dulwich, Trinity and even heard some who chose Eltham ahead of Westminster.

So again, @TJsAunt why such animosity towards the school? What is your relationship to it? Did your child/ren not get the school place (wherever that might have been) that you'd wanted?

Both my kids got their first choice- we turned down a scholarship to EC for ds.

have no skin in this game- but am v local and know lots of families with kids there. They acknowledge the issues with grade inflation and a super ambitious head.

My point re oversubscription is simply that every kid taking the 11+ takes about 5 independent school exams plus maybe a grammar test or 2.

so it’s disingenuous to say that any school is oversubscribed just because there are 10 kids sitting for every place available.

🤷‍♀️

And I’ve never worked at a school in any capacity!

Genuine question - after the results fudge during covid why would you even consider Eltham College as a school? Colfes will surely be more popular? Then ofcourse you have the cost of living crisis which will impact some fee paying parents but not all.

However, in all reality why on earth would you consider Eltham College after the grades fiasco? All that money and privilege and they had to go ask for even more marks, obviously something was not right with the management of the school? Has that changed or not?

Eltham College

A-level A* grades (2019) 29.1%
A-level A* grades (2021) 72.2%

Percentage point increase in A* grades at A-level 43.1

Why would anyone want to go there?

Genuine question? Have they managed to change their culture rapidly?

I mean those 2021 results just look like they completely gamed the system.

I wonder how they explain that to prospective parents and at open days?

43.1

This is all true. Eltham wasn't the only school. Maybe if there was coursework, with more parents perhaps being in professional (flexible jobs) at a school like Eltham, certain schools had the uplift of more parental 'input'? Ultimately, if coursework is presented, schools have to accept it as is, unless obviously cheating going on?

But, lots of high achieving schools - state/private - overestimated and, as someone else said on there, maybe kinder than underestimating in a way.

But, just so we're clear, regardless of Colfe's being a great school, for years and years, it has never been seen as even near Eltham in terms of academics. I have honestly not heard of anyone accepting Colfe's ahead of Eltham, even now. We have friends' friends who have kids (siblings) at both schools and, although happy, I'd say most would still prefer Eltham. Believe it or not, Eltham is a lovely, happy school where pastoral care - despite perhaps coming across as stuffy during Open Days - is very much on the forefront and has been for 30+ years!

lookatthat2 I do think people choose Colfes over Eltham.

It may be in part because Colfes are seen as offering more financial discounts but also I think they are seen as a school on the up.

I do not hear of much academic discount for Eltham.

I think the inflated grades have really damaged Eltham.

@lookatthat2 l know a lot of parents who prefered colfes over eltham college. Elthams gcse grades are not good at all. Colfes gcse grades was much better than Eltham last year. One of my friends daughter had an offer from eltham college junior and she is so avarage in all subjects, even her parents says that. And when u consider that eltham is more selective because their first entry point is 7+ they are not doing great job at all.

Actually, yes, Colfe's much more generous re scholarships, both academic and sports. A few backs, but some boys were offered 25% sports scholarships at Colfe's whilst not even being called in for assessment at Eltham.

Similarly, some were offered 50% academic at Colfe's and 'only' 20% at Eltham. Maybe more people are also tempted by these in a cost of living crisis?

I don't know much about the junior school but on the whole, Eltham gives preference to siblings. So if they 'pass' the test (maybe not excelling), they will take younger siblings. So then, if you look at the progress score for Eltham, I'd wager they're way ahead. Remember, unlike Colfe's where there is an internal exam for progressing to senior school, that is not the case at Eltham so they manage to produce great results despite being less selective for their internal intake than most other schools.

I wouldn't be surprised if Eltham is back where they've been for years and years, i.e. ahead of Dulwich/Colfe's etc, in a year's time.

My son used to study in eltham senior (his choice) - eltham is good school but definately its not in same level with Dulwich. And its not warm place like colfes or Blackheath high (my opinion). My daughter is in Blackheath High she received better gcse grades than my son. I was planning for her go to eltham or colfes 16th form (because they are mixed 6th form) but she prefered to stay in Blackheath. She will be studying medicine in Imperial but my son did lots of sport in eltham and to be honest in the end he didnt get good results from the stem subjects. Eltham helped my son to go in competitions which is good but we paid lots of fees for almost 15 years and now he a p.e teacher and not earning really well. He was so good at maths and english in the primary but then he focused so much to the sport and i believe that effected his grades. My son could study science, maths or english in other 6th form but eltham said us he should focus on sport because he is good at sport (eltham really cares about the results which i hate it). And my son didnt want to change the school in that time so he studied whatever they advised to us. My son now wish he studied something different but there is nothing we can do. All these school are good but i think the are all in same level. Do not focus on gcse results or league tables. To be honest i know lot of children who is so happy in colfes or Blackheath high But my experience with eltham was not so good.

I know three boys who moved to Colfes from Eltham college. They are all happy in Colfes. In Eltham there are about 22-24 pupil in each classroom... I think its too much for independent school. Eltham college is okay for boys but still boys are heavier so I dont recommend it for girls.When we visited almost all teachers were man - so my daughter didnt wanted to go. And I felt like its so silly to move to Eltham juniors.. they dont let pupil to try 11+... I know a family who receiver %65 bursary from other independent school so they decided to move their child as they think its worth to pay less. So its not sensible to join Eltham Collge in year 3 and stay there until 18. There are aldı great grammer schools so its good to try. In genaral I think we are so unlucky with the independent schools in South East London. South West or North has better options. But locally I prefer Colfes for boys and Blackheath/Bromley High for girls.

@Lola8858 - unfortunately a lot of private schools do this with kids who are very sporty or musical. They push them into doing so much of that so they compete or perform constantly when in reality the future employment opportunities in those areas are minimal and reserved for the very very top only.

The private schools have invested so much in sports and music teachers themselves that they are having to find some kids who do a ton of this and also to compete with other schools. For a child doing hours of sports or music every week is very tiring and so of course, it is a distraction and they have less energy for academics. In the upside though, you should take comfort in the fact that your son is probably incredibly healthy and life is not just about money and job prospects. And if he is very intelligent he can retrain into banking or law or similar - it will just be a longer path.

@Ranyyups - I think Eltham is now for rich families with 2-3 kids of different sex who want a local school, happy to just pay up, want all kids in same school, no 11 plus stress, lots of holidays/big cars type of family from Blackheath and Bickley/Chislehurst area- who want an easy option and don’t want kids to travel too far for schooling.
So not for pushy parents who want top schools like Westminster or Sevenoaks or Alleyns or Jags and want their kids to travel and work incredibly hard. So for former family, they may want 7 plus and then relax.

@Lola8858 and @Ranyyups Are you related or the same person? Your style of writing/English is remarkably similar?

Do you know why they moved?
Btw, in one of my DC's classes there are 50% female teachers, in my other DC's class about 40%! Girls are happy and well catered for!

@lookatthat2 you aren't bothered by the inflated grades then? EC was in the national press - apparently they were one of the 4 worst offenders. A head in North London lost her job over it. You don't see this as something worth criticising the head over?

Eltham do not have a sibling policy - so not sure why you feel the need to explain recent dips in results that way? Could it be that - after an initial flurry of v generous scholarships to attract the smart kids when he first arrived, Sanderson has had to accept that this is the real level that EC can achieve once the governors stop him giving discretionary 90% scholarships to attract the brightest kids?

Colfes beat them soundly last year - as did most other independents. Surely this is one of the main drivers behind the whole merger with Blackheath - in an attempt to lock high achievers in at an earlier age.

It will backfire.

I thought anything above 50pc scholarship contravenes some sort of mandatory rules? 90pc would only be for bursary students?

We didn’t choose private schools in the end but we looked around. It struck me that the head teachers (aka “masters” in independent school parlance) have incredibly different management styles. The Irish chap at Colfe’s came across as polar opposite to the politician in shiny suit at Eltham and we also looked at Trinity which would have been my choice for a boy, simply due to the honest and down to earth style of the head there. He basically said our boys are clever and that is what makes results. It is the intake that counts more than anything else. Just wish our government would invest more in state schools and have more options for grammars again, if that is what some people want.

The 90% scholarship offers were for 2 non bursary students in ds's year. They negotiated hard and eventually (on the basis they wouldn't tell anyone...) they both wangled 90% scholarships. They were then gutted when the offer was not repeated for younger siblings.

Interesting comment re heads. Think the different styles of leaders is really quite key when choosing a school.

DS went to DC in the end. The head's comment that "if your son comes here, he's bright so will get good results. Let's put that to one side and talk about what education is" - really spurred us on to choose that school.