Eltham College Blackheath Prep Merger

[TJsAunt]

Just announced. So many questions - they claim both schools will remain as they are but surely there will be changes? Worrying...

It absolutely would be a breach though I’m not sure if there would be any recourse legally.

A promise of guaranteed place was unconditional. Saying it’s only guaranteed now if you don’t apply to other schools is materially different and the change suggest the school has serious concerns about their numbers in future. The entire merger seems designed to play on parents fears around the 11+ so they commit early to Eltham and don’t apply anywhere else for the sake of certainty.

“Guess they were fed up holding places for kids who then gave one term's notice in year 6?”

I don’t think that is the point because it makes the school all powerful. If they are going to change it, they should only change if for new joiners. Not for those who joined earlier relying on the old policy who are paying almost 20k in fees. They could have just stayed in other schools, private or state (it is a 7 plus school).

Plus it is now cheaper to go to Blackheath Prep than Eltham Junior. I don’t see what the Eltham Junior parents will gain from any of this? Especially if it is true that Blackheath Prep kids can still sit 11 plus at the beginning of Year 6 and wait for an Eltham Senior offer?

If you want Eltham at Senior Level which school would you choose now? Eltham Junior or Blackheath Prep? The latter is cheaper and gives more options.

Personally, I would choose neither and go to Blackheath High with girls or Colfe’s where there is none of this stuff going on.

It all looks very desperate as well…

@Intergalacticcatharsis agree!

EC junior kids still have the option of an automatic place while BP kids still have to pass an exam -albeit in Y5. So there's definitely a point to going to the junior school if you're sure that's what you want at 11.

Don't have kids at either school so am impartial.

Agree it could be seen as a desperate attempt to get the whole 11+ process sewn up early.

Am not really sure it'll work? The SE London prep school crowd are pretty vociferous if they don't like something??

Was speaking to a parent from BP at the weekend - with a kid in Y3 they now have a dilemma ahead of them.

Unless EC's public exams perk up soon, this whole policy could actually work against them?

I believe it is an advantage for children to sit on 11+ exams; even when they are in all-through school and happy there. Because, they might get an offer from more academic/selective independent or grammar school or better scholarships - Its good to challenge them and see their potentials. They might get good reduction (scholarships, bursaries) form other independent schools and you may feel its worth to go - When you join in Eltham in year 3 you never know what will happen in 10 years.

We recently had an offer from Eltham Juniors but we turned it down and stayed in our GDST School - I am so happy with our decision now.

I wouldn’t accept that guaranteed Eltham senior offer for my child! So its not guaranteed place anyway for us.
Its also so bad strategy for Eltham I think, students who trust themselves will try other school exams but the ones who may not feel will have an offer going to stay in Eltham.
One of my friends son had an offer from St Dunstans for year 7 but he went to local state secondary but unfortunately he couldn’t settle well. So they decided to move him St Dunstans in year 8. The admission team said to them that year 8 entry is so competitive because they only have 1 or 2 places but they also said it is an advantage for him that he had an offer for year 7 entry. Now he is in St Dunstans and he was the only one who received an offer in that year.
So, Its also good to attend exams for future references.

Eltham College always been so ambitious.Schools first entry point is 7+ but still not cannot beat Alleyns, Dulwich College or JAGS.But this new rule is so unfair for Eltham College Juniors current parents and students.I wish them the best luck.

Do the junior school parents at schools like Eltham, Blackheath High indirectly contribute fees to the senior schools? I have always wondered this. Does anyone know? Because they have much fewer teachers, typically less use of facilities, less clubs etc., hence the question.

Why are prep schools often cheaper than junior schools attached to senior schools?

I suspect this will backfire. In future, those who would have selected Eltham for the safety now will just go to a prep. At least at a prep they school will help with preparation for external exams and if they’ll be in the same position vis-a-vis Eltham. Only families who are 100 percent certain they want Eltham for senior school as their first choice will apply.

Agree it will backfire. I hear that many from the current Y5 at Eltham are being tutored heavily for grammar schools - why not just do the tutoring at a prep or state school will be the new thinking. One of my friends in fact picked Dulwich Prep over Eltham Junior at 7+ just to have the extra choice of senior schools as everything is just so competitive and uncertain in London.

I think there was some hype around Eltham Junior when it went co-ed and lots of pushy parents applied and got places for their DC. The school now want to try and trap those parents to ensure future good results?

You can’t push the pushy parent though, or at least that is what I have heard. It backfires… you have to entice and placate the pushy helicopter parent and run pleasing circles around them.

And they have merged with a pushy prep. I feel sorry for the staff and Admissions team at these schools. I wonder if they realise what they have gotten themselves into.

Also imagine the competition over academic, art and music scholarships between the two primary bits now. How is that going to work?

I have now heard rumours that the Eltham Junior kids are not given a guaranteed place in Year 7 anymore if they even apply for another Year 7 school (so no more trying for grammar etc). So basically if you join Eltham in Year 3 you have to be sure you want to stay long term.

@Intergalacticcatharsis are you sure about this? If it is true.. it is ridiculous:O

@naomienira - it is on the Blackheath Prep website.

https://www.blackheathprep.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Eltham-College-Pathway-Infographic.pdf

Eltham Junior students who wish to explore 11 plus “options” rather than sign up and pay up immediately are then treated like all other external candidates and have to sit with external candidates. I wonder if they are also asked to pay another registration fee? Does anyone know?

So if you are not sure about Eltham College Senior School yet, then it makes no sense to sign up to Eltham College Junior School, in my opinion. The child is better off either going to the Prep or another prep or state primary (where you can use a tutor, or at least your child is in the same position as other children in their cohort whereas here they will be in the minority).

My issue is not with the new policy per se. All schools can change their admissions policy. It is just atypical for a private school to suddenly change its admissions policy on existing parents in this way. I haven’t heard of this kind of thing happening elsewhere, but I might be wrong?

@Intergalacticcatharsis I haven’t heard as well🤷🏻‍♀️

Unfortunately I have to agree with previous comments on mumsnet about the staff at this school - we also felt that the head had a somehwat cold and rigid attitude when we visited. I also echo others' concerns about the school over-inflating their grade predictions recently: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/feb/06/labour-seeks-inquiry-into-huge-jump-in-top-grade-a-levels-at-private-schools . EC has just introduced another radical change at very short notice, to award from this year unlimited "priority places" to Blackheath Prep School “ahead of all other candidates” into Eltham Senior School, “thus by-passing the 11+ exams" https://www.blackheathprep.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Eltham-College-Pathway-Infographic.pdf: for sure this would considerably diminish the admission chances of other external applicants. I've had concerns about other bad press as well: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jun/13/ex-pupils-who-compiled-sexual-abuse-dossier-accused-of-blocking-inquiry . On top of all this, Mottingham, the area surrounding the school, is unsafe with high crime rates - not an appropriate place for school teens to go out for a snack after school. Too many red flags about Eltham College for us, we will be seeking a safer and better school somewhere else for our DC.

@purplefairy287 I think it's fair to say that the grade inflation was mainly due to there not being exams and coursework was assessed. At the end of the day, if a student turn in excellent work, they have to give the grades as is.

Generally, pre-Covid, Eltham was always up there with Dulwich in terms of exam results, and just behind Trinity and always a fair bit ahead of Colfe's. Last year's results were not as impressive as the aforementioned schools which mainly due to the fact that Eltham did not apply the usual Sixth Form entry criteria (of a minimum of 7s in GCSEs, I think, and 8/9s in Maths/Sciences etc) to the cohorts affected by Covid so essentially ending up with a less selective group. I doubt the other schools mentioned were as generous so therefore their results were obviously better!

And, as a through school without an exam for internal junior school applicants (although I believe that if Eltham think your child is not up for the senior school, they will tell you in Y5/6), they will not have the same ability to be selective as Dulwich/Colfe's etc but they still do amazingly well, which presumably shows the added value in terms of progress.

As for the area around the school, Mottingham - it's not exactly gang land territory ;) and it's perfectly safe to get to and from home from there. Lots of big (expensive) houses near the school too.

We have children at EC and have been very happy with the school and leadership.

@lookatthat2 are you happy with the recent less than stellar exam results and the school’s reticence at sharing them?

@TJsAunt Not sure what you mean? If you're referring to the last results (2022), they're all on their website.
As mentioned, Eltham did not apply their highly selective criteria for Sixth Form Entry due to Covid as they felt it would be kinder letting them stay on, even though other years they would not have gained entry to EC's Sixth Form.

@lookatthat2 took EC weeks to publish the results and even when they did they have insisted on giving a meaningless 3 year trend stat?

EC couldn’t apply their ruthless sixth form cut off during Covid as they gave out so many 9s that all the boy’s qualified.

Theyre back kicking kids out at 16 now though- most of the rugby team last year- in Sanderson’s relentless quest for league table success…..

Actually Eltham College was in the top 4 most over-inflated grades out of all schools in the entire country: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10482061/Private-schools-gamed-Covid-double-grades-investigation-finds.html . And the Mottingham area is indeed known to have higher rates of various offences / crime: https://www.kentlive.news/news/kent-news/bromley-orpington-beckenhams-most-dangerous-2715379

My kids are at EC and we are pretty happy with it. It sure ain't perfect but I'd love you to show me a school that is.

Lol at the comment about the rugby team boys last year. I think it's really easy to throw these comments around online but, as ever, the context of these decisions is rarely fully known.

Every school will suit some kids down to the ground, and others not at all. Indeed my two kids sometimes feel like they are at different schools.

The area the school is in is a typical gritty suburban London area. An area where a few streets can massively skew the crime figures - as I suspect is the case here with the area around Dunkery Road which isn't exactly on the doorstep of the average EC pupils commute. When I was a teen I was actually mugged in the road directly outside Dulwich College so in my direct experience, Dulwich is actually more unsafe 🤷🏼‍♀️

EC parents trying desperately not to acknowledge the grade inflation scandal….

Wait til Y11 GCSE results day when the kids have to collect results in person.

those who have failed to make the cut (which included a lot of rugby players last year- not sure why the LOL?) get told publicly that they’re out.

Not much pastoral care at that point….

@WannaBeAYummyMummy Yes, agree with this.

@TJsAunt Mottingham does have some roads which are a bit rough looking but most of the roads nearest to the school, and which the kids pass to get to local buses aren't. Lots of kids use the local buses and have done for years. Not far from Mottingham is of course lovely Chislehurst, Bickley with Petts Wood beyond. A lovely area to live in. People rarely move away once they've been established here.

@TJsAunt Can I ask what your connection with the school is? Has something happen to you/your kids which has made you feel such animosity?

I don't think it's unusual for kids to be told if they're not up to the level of Sixth Form. Most (all?) Sixth Form Colleges have entry criteria so lots of kids move around at that point, not at all unusual - happens in comprehensives, grammars and other independents. It's just that the entry criteria for EC are so high (same as other academic schools).

Although mine are fortunately not in any of the key (GCSE/A-level) years, I've heard that the boys that have and will likely leave this year, are simply not academic enough or have been somewhat disruptive. I know parents in the GCSE year and these kids' parents were told ages ago and were recommended to look elsewhere for their boys as unlikely to make the grades.

I'm not sure why, but it does seem that quite a few of these have happened to be rugby players. Maybe all that testosterone? I'm guessing it will be similar in other schools with the difference that those schools have a formal entry exam when you move from junior to senior school, so they have the ability to sift kids out earlier.

I'm not avoiding the "scandal". I don't think it is a scandal - although there was probably some poor judgement applied. I am a governor at two other schools and the TAG/CAG system was utterly ridiculous. In fact, one of the other schools I am involved with probably used even poorer judgement but it wasn't picked up by the press. I think schools that under-graded their kids are probably just as culpable. I mean, none of it was ideal. I certainly don't see any of it as some unassailable truth about the long-term moral compass of a given school though - it was a poor situation that was dealt with very differently by different schools.

The LOL about the rugby team was because rugby is always somehow brought up in any threads about schools like these. What relevance does it have that they played rugby or not? Either they were treated unfairly or they weren't. As @lookatthat2 says, a lot of schools have some kind of entry requirements for sixth form and you either meet them or you don't. Pastoral care has always been excellent for my kids but, again, I can only speak from experience and I'm sure you'd find others keen to tell you that it is the most dreadful school ever created if that's what you want. You'd find that for almost every school in the UK I suspect.