Independent schools and Labour government

[Turquoisesilver]

Has it actually been outlined what the proposals are? I believe there would effectively be a 20% fee increase, is that correct?

While I agree that Labour have always increased funding for Education my biggest worry would be WHERE that funding would be applied? Labour's current looney left track record doesn't fill me with hope - probably lots of rainbows and gender ID??

Yes, but it's nothing to do with being a luxury.

In fact, wasn't there a similar - but more radical - policy leaked under Corbyn? It was to do with private schools and their land IIRC(?). There was a long MN thread at the time. Lots of posters saying they scraped by to send their SEN kids private, I'm sure. But very similar to this in that the impacts hadn't been thought through at all.

It is happening but it will be far worse not better. So what’s the point of a policy that achieves a worse net outcome?

Our DC's old school independent had 15-20% of kids receiving some form of bursary (several fully-funded). Facilities such a sports fields, pool and minibuses were all made available to local state schools for use. They even host and run a mass summer sports event for 8-10 local schools. Everyone loves it and it's a major event for kids in the community.
Once charitable status is removed they won't be able to afford to fund those things and will need to find 20% savings to offset the cost.

Be careful what you wish for!

@itsgettingweird “You can't buy your way into occupied housing”

No you can’t but over time people will. Just look at how some places are becoming out of reach for the previous demographic.

Even more bizarre is a recent tax case which seemed to hinge on whether the item in question was hard (as in a biscuit) or soft as in a cake!

This is exactly the kind of stupidity that we can expect if Starmer gets his way. Do we really trust a government and it's army of pen pushing civil servants to draft the proposed law correctly? I.e. how will they manage to change the law so that a private education is VATable, but keep "private" swimming lessons, dance schools, piano lessons, etc VAT free? People need to be careful what they wish (and vote) for. Do all these people wanting "the rich" to pay VAT on private education also want to have to fork out another 20% on their daughter's dancing lessons or their son's swimming lessons? No I thought not!

Do you really trust the law-drafters to be able to come up with laws to keep private football lessons VAT free? The same people who can't come up with a coherent law as to the a Jaffa Cake being VAT free but a chocolate digestive being VATable?? I don't!

What will happen is that the surviving private schools will become even more exclusive, with only those with deep pockets able to weather the fee increase.

^ Yes, exactly this. And ironically it will result in the removal of all the sorts of funded/ bursary places like the one Starmer himself benefitted from!
Nothing like pulling up the ladder after you've reached the top, eh?!

What would be the justification for keeping VAT off private ballet/music/sports lessons etc if it is applied to private education? When Rachel Reeves was asked about the issue on the webinar on here she simply said that she thought it was fair and that if she took her children out for dinner she'd pay VAT. Surely the same sort of 'it's a choice/luxury' argument would apply to any form of extra class or tutoring.

I think this is a bit of a red herring of a discussion. Both my DCs had music lessons and did occasional extra curricular sports/ activities. Mostly it was a contract directly with the teacher/provider and we paid them directly, so then it depended whether they were VAT registered or not. Most weren't as they probably weren't earning enough as e.g. a peripatetic music teacher to reach the VAT threshold.

@Scaevola That statement has nothing to do with charitable status and I never said anything about charitable status.

If an organisation has to charge VAT, it then becomes eligible for recovering input VAT on expenses that are currently non-recoverable. Those previously non-recoverable VAT charges on expenses will disappear which will lower running costs. That's how VAT works and has nothing to do with charitable status.

Please stop accusing me of saying things I haven't said and not understanding how this works....

Keir Starmer did not benefit from a bursery of any kind. He was state educated all the way through as are his children.

As a parent who ( I hang my head in shame ) who sent DS to the school in Hampshire that Sunak never stops talking about,I do hope that Labour go ahead with this. They are dreadful institutions and a millstone around the neck of anyone who attends them.

The views of the majority of the entitled who attend are beyond shocking. DS doesn't live in the UK so has managed to rid himself of the association.

Yes, I agree!

Part of the problem with those that bash the independent school sector (especially day schools - boarding is a different beast) is that they don't really understand the current level of community collaboration their often is between private and state, which will likely change if independent schools need to tighten their belts to cover extra taxes etc.

The woodwind teacher at our DC's independent also teaches in many of the local schools too. Her rates are published and are the same. However the independent school lets her use the school concert hall on a Saturday for a local area wind band (open to children from all schools). If she has to start paying to rent that space then everyone attending will be impacted.

it will make the larger boarding schools even more exclusive and drive up the numbers accepted from overseas. There will be less bursaries available and smaller schools will fold or merge. House prices near high performing state schools will rise. I seriously hope they rethink the approach.

Keir Starmer did not benefit from a bursery of any kind. He was state educated all the way through as are his children.

That's not true actually. He went to Reigate Grammar which became independent while he was there and he was allowed to stay/ finish his education with a state-funded bursary.

I'm interested where all these private schools are that offer their facilities to state schools. There are a few round here but none of them seem to offer anything to the rest of the community. One local prep school had its own Rainbows and Brownie packs but you could only attend them if you were a student at the school. The rest of us had to join the waiting list for the other local pack.

They want the over 50s to stay in work but the only thing that keeps me going is the remaining three years of school fees for my ds, who's on a scholarship at an independent. If not for those I would have already retired. I'm 60 in a couple of months. So they'll lose all my income tax, my contribution to GDP and my 40 years of skills.

DS's independent school is a charity. The local state primaries use their swimming pool. During covid, it was the independent school providing care for key workers because the local comp refused to do it. The school provides the venue for, and staffs the town fireworks night because the local council doesn't. They host the local StageCoach, and run the DoE for all the local senior schools too.

DS will scrape through before Labour wreak havoc (assuming they get elected) but the whole town will be poorer for the changes. It's a shame for many.

Maybe they don't have charitable status? A lot of prep schools don't.

And in fact it changed to a private school just after he got there, and he stayed all the way through to Sixth form, so in fact, he was 'privately educated' for most of his secondary school life!
It's a fact that he likes to play down, and he used to leave it off a lot of his biographies etc just saying 'he passed the 11-plus and entered a state grammar school in Surrey at the age of 11' (which, of course, is true)
Amazing how you can bend the truth to fit your narrative!

have a look at cedars hall- Wells cathedral school has a performing arts centre for the whole community

Or Malvern leisure centre - in the grounds of Malvern college.

Ours does tons of local partnership stuff. Training and conferencing for local state schools. Swimming galas and sports/music events, use of the theatre, use of the pool, massive science week, weekly enrichment lessons in local primaries, hire of STEM resources, mock Oxbridge interviews, university fairs, primary summer school. All free. Probably other stuff that I don't even know about.

All children were allowed to stay during the transition from Grammar to private school. Although most because comprehensive schools. Having seen how this institutions work and what they are prepared to cover up, I would like to see them closed completely. I live in hope.

I am sure it is true that most peripatetic music teachers are under the VAT threshold but much less likely to be true for organisations such as swim schools, dance schools, sports academies etc. Actually I am not sure whether these activities are subject to VAT already (the original comment was in response to another poster who warned about this)?

The other big question is University fees. If the principle that education is not subject to VAT is removed then I am not sure what the reasoning would be behind making schools fees subject to VAT but not University fees.

Corbyn went to prep and senior private schools , a fact that his supporters forget when hounding Starmer about his school.

I am never 100% sure how much influence a school has on a person - even Eton has chucked out a few decent folk ( and hot actors).

There must surely be others factors in ones life that influence people.

Anyway, going back to the topic, I am not sure this will ever get through parliament very easily, but that depends on which route they take to implement it.

I suspect the outcome will be that schools' tax and VAT returns will become overly complicated , as will their statuses, and that there probably won't be a massive increase in money to the treasury.

Labour have to be careful as they have historically put money into education. If they think that this plan will fund the work that needs to be done in the state sector I fear they will be disappointed.