Why is 6th form thought of more highly than attending FE college ?

[Summersunshinee]

I can never understand why if you say that you attend 6th form at school you are thought of more so than if you attended FE college.

I would feel that if anything it would be more impressive to attend FE college as you made the decision to go somewhere else and try something different /

Not everyone attending 6th form went to that school though, so it is something different.

I grew up in an area with a mix of 11-16 and 11-18 schools. My school was 11-16 (although it isn’t now) and the choices were sixth forms of schools, a fairly A-level heavy sixth form college with some limited vocational provision, and several broader FE colleges.

Of the academic group of girls I was friends with at 16 (we were the top performing cohort of the school) every other one went to sixth forms of schools, including lots to a grammar school sixth form in a neighbouring area. I was definitely judged - both by them, but also by the teachers at my high school who tried to talk me out of it - for going to a sixth form college. Academically however I performed the best at 18.

I now live in Hampshire and there is a huge choice in the type of sixth form college I went to and thrived at. I’m so pleased for my children.

I have a friend who has insisted her DC go to 6th form at school rather than college (the college offers A levels, but not a wide choice). I think she's silly as her DC aren't particularly academic and the ones who have already left school (she has quite a few DC) have got lowish Alevel grades and non have wanted to go to uni. all work in jobs that don't require GCSEs (she has quite a few DC

Her reasons were:
She wanted them to be with other teens their own age (college has quite a few student doing an extra year so there are lots of 19yo)

She knows the parents of her children's friends (ie she doesn't want her children Mixing with riff raff she doesn't know)

College only provides 13 hours of teaching per week.
(College actually givers as much teaching time as 6th form, but they don't have study periods so students are expected to write up work at home (they can do it in college if they want to) Teaching is often compressed into three days, so it looks like college students aren't getting as much contact time, when in fact they're often getting more.)

Her DC are able to do the Duke of Edinburgh Award with school which they couldn't do with college. She does have a point here, but I don't think it's worth getting low Alevels instead of a strong BTEC for a DOfE award.

Also, her DC didn't know what subject they wanted to do at college, so 3 A-levels they were a bit interested seemed a better idea.

My DC all decided to go to college to do vocational courses. One went on to do an academic degree. One decided he didn't want to continue in the same subject (I think he only took it because his brother had) he then took a year out and is now doing an apprenticeship in a niche area he has become about. DD has an unconditional place on a uni course next year. For them BTECs have worked. If they'd been academically able enough for Oxbridge it wouldn't.
You only have to look t the Higher Education Board on MN to see every third thread is regarding Oxford or
Cambridge, so it's no wonder MN seems to look down on colleges over 6th forms.

I've noticed though in my area, the brighter kids in the less well performing schools (or at least those with less academic reputations) do tend to apply to college, so they buck that trend a bit.

I suspect that what happens here - there are many not great secondaries in the area and amount of cash the schools get is on the low side.

The sixth forms here have to join together to offer a range of subjects and bus between schools. We did look for DS they only offer at his school one A-level he wanted maths but because he wanted to do further maths as well he'd have to take maths at another school anyway so could be based at school and bussed for free for all lessons- or he could apply to another sixth form and just bus for one subject but then we'd have to pay to get him to the new school about same price as college.

The sixth form also were very unkeen on them taking 4 AS levels which is fairly normal - dropping one for second year but relying on welsh bac and allowing them to drop down to two a-levels if they didn't gel with a subject which limit their options for University - we didn't like that attitude.

DD1 was surprised how many of the staff she knew at college- her school has been hemorrhaging staff some went to the college and many other college had taught in other schools - so here they don't seem to be less qualified as a PP suggested they were in her area. Her campus is all A-level though - other campuses do more a mix of qualification or specialise in different qualifications.

It's regional.
I grew up in Kent, where all grammars and most secondary moderns had sixth forms for A level students. Colleges offered vocational courses.

I now live 250 miles away. In my area no state school has a sixth form, so all A level students enrol in college, including higher achievers. The college my DC will attend next year sent 25 kids to Oxford/Cambridge last year, and it's not even in the top 20 colleges nationally, so there are clearly plenty of great colleges out there.

At college you are more in charge of managing your workload and own progress as opposed to 6th form/school environment when teachers will chase things up more so.

You need to be fairly intelligent and on the ball to handle this.

In our area there are a couple of school 6th forms which require considerably higher GCSE grades for entry than anywhere else in the locality. Hence there is something of a local perception that they are the "best" places and that their pupils are more likely to succeed. Which of course is true to an extent, assuming that what you want to do is A levels and go on to University. They have a self selecting group of pupils who mostly do have this aim, that's what they are set up to achieve and on the whole they do it very well. However, their "product range " is comparatively narrow and if you don't want to do 3 standard academic A levels and an EPQ and then go to University, or are unsure, I would imagine that our local FE college with it's wide range of subjects and different qualifications would probably be a better choice.
Personally I wouldn't see one as intrinsically superior to the other, but they are very different and will suit different people. I have no doubt that there are some excellent staff and very able pupils at both.
Unfortunately, as is often apparent on Mumsnet ,there are some people who view anything other than attending the "right" school, the "right" University and following one of a few "approved" career paths as abject failure and this attitude feeds snobbery around educational choices, and probably always will. My opinion is that there is no one "best" and that the aim should be to make whatever the most appropriate choices are for the individual.

We are in an area with both school sixth forms and sixth form colleges.

Above post is very true here, and was the reason I encouraged my son to stay at school for sixth form, if he got in. He wants to go to university, but like many teenage boys, needed some structure aka kick up the arse in L6 to do the amount of work needed for A levels. He still gets detentions for handing coursework in late etc. Now in U6 he is on course for good a level grades which I really don't think he would have been if he'd gone to the good sixth form college nearby. He is the kind of kid who will 'go with the flow' and at the school sixth form, 98% of the year are planning to go to university. As he wanted to do the same, it seemed the best place for him, although he does find the strictness annoying and it does seem a bit ludicrous to give an 18y old a detention.

Conversely his friends that went to sixth form college have mainly dropped out now, or are doing trade apprenticeships.This suits them and I'm sure they'll have a lucrative career out of them, but I worry about the ones that have just been left to drop out at 17 and are currently doing nothing.

So I would say school sixth forms might be good for kids that want to go to uni but need structure and monitoring. Sixth form colleges better for self-starters and self motivated or those who really can't take being told off etc at 17/18.

Of course if you have a clever, highly motivated kid who is going to get A stars anyway at A level then it probably makes little difference. Or one that know exactly what that want and have already lined up apprentichips and need a college for the 1 afternoon a week of tuition part etc.the obviously they go to college.

I would say neither bunch of kids looks down on the other here and my son has friends in both camps. They are all just focusing on their own futures at this point.

Both my DS went to college as they wanted to do vocational courses. The elder one was only in college 3 days a week but the younger one went every day for his course.

As it turns out neither of them now do the job they were trained to do on these courses, but then I don't do the job my degrees trained me to do.

At the time only the grammar schools were offering Sixth Forms, so everyone went to colleges , some to do A levels, others for these courses . However now the colleges locally are really only offering courses, plus the odd A level (maybe up to 5 subjects) and re-sit GCSE courses. Nearly all the schools now have Sixth Forms again - with the one exception being the one DS1 went to - it still doesn't have a Sixth Form. No idea why.

DD - her school stopped Sixth Form for 2 years and now have brought it back but it doesn't offer enough extra curricular like sport or music for the Sixth Formers as its so small so she is going to another school for it as are nearly all of her year.

I really think it is down to geographic area - some colleges replicate the Sixth Form experience re A levels etc, but others solely on BTECs etc.

The main difference I see, on our experience is that the boys had far more independence and more adult interaction at college than I see in school sixth forms.

@SmartHome Detentions at 18 years old ? really ?

So they can legally go to the pub and buy alcohol, vote and have a drivers licence amongst other things.

But they can still get dentations ? that is mad

I know, it's silly, but honestly, he needs the discipline 😂😂 and they both just laugh about it really i.e both teachers and pupil are just going through the motions at this point. It's just an excuse to make them sit down and do an hour's work on course work, or whatever, which he again needed.

School sixth form has worked out for him as he wanted to go to a well-regarded university and he wouldn't have got there via the sixth form college I don't think. He has also matured massively between L6 and U6 and now wants it for himself rather than because it's expected if you see what I means so it putting a lot of effort and revision in, which at one point I thought I'd never see.

But I think it's all contextual. The type of person your kid is, where they are on their maturity journey, what they want to do next, how motivated that are etc. It's definitely a positive that there are both options available. Don't under estimate the amount of work involved in A levels (and BTECS I imagine). If they're done with studying at 16 or hated GCSEs what would be the point really of forcing them through that. So having the option of trades and apprentiships at the colleges is great as, as everyone knew years ago, some people are more academically minded and some are more practically minded. Some want to get to work and earn money, some want to go to university and enjoy that kefestyle for a bit and earn later. Neither are better, just suit different people.

The sixth form college seems to allow a mixture of A levels and BTECS as well which his school doesn't which is also another nuance. The sixth form colleges are definitely more flexible in terms of subject combinations and outcomes. Plenty go to uni from there too, but my guess is it more 50/50 in the year. because many are doing trade apprentiships.

And at least he drives himself home from his own detentions now and I don't have to pick him up!

unfortunately DCS regional college had low expectations and dont really inspire the students to go for "better" unis.

DD finished her btech half a term early because she wanted to do Camp America. She got maximum ucas pointsand had an offer from RG uni.
Yet on results day they rang up to speak to her (she was in US) so spoke to me. They wanted to know if she wanted help with clearing! It wasnt a mistake it was their default stance.
DD also got no recognition for her hard work in finishing early and was seen as a bit of an oddity, rather than a good example

But seriously, that is what I mean though. Many 17/18y olds just could not take that, (especially boys). He moans about it and rolls his eyes, but doesn't really care as can see the big picture - getting to university and freedom next year. But he has friends who would not respond in any way positively to that now, so it is much better that they are at college one day a week and on a building site learning a trade. Equally he has friends who would not thrive at all in that environment where they have to get up at the crack of dawn and get to different sites for a 7am start and cope with the mainly or exclusively male banter from people of all different ages. Who's to say which is best - neither, it's what's best for your child, at that time in their lives.

@SmartHome For some reason you last post has made me remember the work experience episode of the inbetweeners.

Haha the last few years have been literally like living through an episode of the in betweeners 🤣

So they can legally go to the pub and buy alcohol, vote and have a drivers licence amongst other things.

But they can still get dentations ? that is mad.

Adults can be punished for things, disciplined at work etc. If you choose to belong to an institution you need to abide by its rules. Besides, an 18 year-old may be able to vote etc, but a lot of them don't really behave like adults or have much maturity. Unsurprising really - there's nothing magically maturing about passing the day of your 18th birthday!

I understand that point of view.

Yes if you are underperforming or misbehave at work you can find yourself in hot water by way of a disciplinary or being dismissed.

But in that situation you are paid to be there.

Well in that situation he could have walked out, refused to attend, dropped out or whatever. But he didn't because he a) knew he'd broken whatever stupid rule (to him) and b) saw the bigger picture which is that he is largely happy there with his mates, likes most of the teachers, wants to go to university and doing well in his A levels is important to him. Same as I've often sucked up obnoxious comments from male bosses because it was important to have a reasonable amount of time at that job on my CV for my career aspirations, or whatever (don't think I've ever stayed because of money, honestly, as I've always known I could fairly easily get a different job on similar money).

And the PP is right, there is nothing magical about turning 18. They are still maturing and biologically you're not really fully baked until your early twenties, I certainly don't really look back at my life and think I made adult decisions until I was 21/22.

Making the decision to put up with things you don't like, sometimes, when it benefits you in the long run, is also part of maturing and growing up I think.

@SmartHome I would never suggest walking out. If you want something you sadly need to put up with a few bumps along the road.

Exactly. But I couldn't really have stopped him if he had decided to once he was 18.

Sadly, in the 18 months he's been at sixth form, some of his friends have tried sixth form college, dropped out, moved to another one to do a different course, dropped out, gone to a third one to do a trade, hated that, tried a different one, hated that etc etc. There is something to be said, as you say, for sticking at something for a bit longer and developing resilience. I do think the school sixth form route encourages that.

I think for most/many 17/18 year olds it's luck rather than judgement though, myself included!

@SmartHome I guess so.

But there must be some people who attended college who are clued up and got the most out of it ?

Also there must be people who quit 6th form at school and went to college as it was better suited for them ?

Of course there are.

I think there are a significant minority of kids who start A levels (wherever) possibly because they think they should / want to stay at school who discover in y12 it was a bad idea, and who then 'restart' y12 the following September doing something far more suitable.

Near me, 6th forms are all about A-Levels followed by uni, colleges are more vocational courses and focussed on starting work straight away.

Attitudes towards each seem to reflect the value placed on careers you'd eventually get going either route eg. Solicitor after A-levels and uni, versus hairdresser after college*

*these are just examples, there are many others which could be substituted in