why do so few children pass the 11+ in our local primaries?

[mummyloveslucy]

We went to look at our local primary school recently. It seemed quite nice and relaxed. There is no head teacher at the moment, but probbubly will be by the time dd is 5.
The problem is when I asked how many pass their 11+ she said, the top 5%. This seems very low. We went to see another school and they have top marks with ofsted but they also say that 5% pass the 11+.
I just wondered if this is normal and why do so few pass? I would love my dd to pass her 11+ as our local state senior schools are terrible. We have some really lovely grammer schools though. Also private seniour schools cost loads, much more than juniors.

But isn't that the point of grammar schools - they are selective, and are looking to take the top 5-10% academically. It wouldn't make sense if all mainstream non-selective primary schools got 40 or 50% in other than in an truly exceptional year. All this tells you really is that your local state schools aren't managing to somehow be selective by the backdoor (eg via house price or faith).

Probably only 5% go to the grammars overall in the area ? Remember also many parents send kdis to prep schools which coach the kids to pass 11+ , taking a fair few places, rather than pay for private secondary. Whereabouts are you ?

MLL are you in NI?

what LadyM said.

how terrible are your local ungrammar schools? sometimes terrible is not as bad as you think.

LucindaRuth has a point re:non selective schools. If the more academic pupils have mostly been creamed off by the grammar schools, then that will inevitably make their results a bit worse.

Oh, they're Bad alrigh.
Lisz, I'm thinking of doing that but don't want her to feel too under pressure to pass as if she dosn't I don't want her to feel bad.

It is not normally a case of "Passing", more of being in top 100 or however many places on offer - when local primaries are up against the intensly coached private school kids who don't have to take SATS so practice these tests in class.

I'm not talking about results so much as drug problems, bulleing, teenage pregnancy, you name it.

All of the senior schools apart from the grammar schools have all of these problems ?

FWIW drug problems are just as prevelant at gramar nad independent schools, so please don't choose schools on the basis of what you think of the social behaviour. There are other factors in a child's lfe which make them more at risk of say teenage pregnancy than the school they go to.

In terms of likelihood of passing 11+, one of the key trackers is whether the mother did so (or would have done so had it been available) so if you were in the top 10% then the chances are that Lucy will be regardless of which school you send her to.

What area are you in? It varies widely what percentage are expected to go to grammar school overall -- for example in Kent it's 20% and in Essex 3%, I think (or used to be a while back). It's down to different systems in different LEAs.

Ladymuck- If that case, Lucy's pretty much stuffed then.

Well, if you want to avoid the druggy dens of iniquity that are your local state secondary schools, you probably have 3 options:
a) pay for private primary with the aim of passing 11+
b) stick with state primary and pay for secondary (though obviously take 11+ too).
c) start with state primary, and if she is clearly very bright and not being stretched then swap to private primary.

I appreciate that it is very early days to assess her academic potential, but in a number of areas the grammars are fairly competitive, so, in the envent that you can't find the money for private all the way through I would probably opt for b. If you do find that she is bright but unchallenged at the state school you could always swap to private primary, but otherwise I would save your money if ultimately it is the senior schools that you want to avoid.

If you were happy to name the county then I suspect people could give you even more insight.

In my area (and others?) another issue is that children from other education authorities will also be competing for grammar school places - they pick pupils according to their exam scores, not necessarily where they live.

See www.elevenplusexams.co.uk to find out how it works in your area.

You can send a child to the best school in the world, if she decides to have sex and get pregnant at 15, she will, and unless the school practices enforced abortion, it is nothing to do with the school, and everthing to do with her, he self esteem, and her home life.

Children in private or selective schools still have access to drugs, alcohol, and semen. What they DON'T seem to have as much of is the crushing low self esteem that poverty, poor parenting and lack of self efficacy can bring.

This is not the school, this is the circumstance. Avoiding the people in those circumstances is why selective and private schools avoid the rampant drug and teenage sex problems rife in comprehensive schools - the victims or poor parenting are unlikely to get it together to pass the 11+, and the impoverished cannot afford private education (and are also statistically less likely to be in the top 5% of their school)

coldits- very well put, and so true. At my school the teachers were under a hell of a lot of stress and they were fantastic. The school in it's self was great, it just unfortunatly had a hell of a lot of children with problems. I turned out fine, as I had a loving family and strong traditional values. (I was bullied every day though as I just didn't fit in)

Drug problems are just as prevalent in grammar schools and independent schools! More money and greater stress = harder drugs.
(I got this from a teenager who knows)

Good post from colditz there. Also the schools might be told to say 5% but they might be lying. Is there some other way to double check?

There are drugs in most schools but certainly in schools where most of the children go to good universities it's cool to do that and to work. In schools where most don't then it's easier for children to fall in with the group who don't work etc. If there's no group that doesn't work then there's not so much chance of that.

Did you know 50% of children have below average grades

I live in South East London and many of the children in my area go to Bexley grammars. In my experience all the children who get into the grammar go for targeted 11 plus coaching from year 5 onwards. As we live in a London borough, the schools do not teach the 11 plus, so coaching is necessary. It is a desperately unfair fact that very few children pass the 11 plus who have not been coached. If you are middle class you need to be bright to pass the 11 plus. If you are from a working class background, you need to be exceptional.

I think my children will be going to a local comprehensive rather than travelling out to Kent, but there are only two local authority schools that I would consider.

Out of my ds's primary he was one of only 3 to pass, despite the vast majority having been tutored for a year or so beforehand.

In his grammar, drugs are available, there is bullying but I don't know about teenage pregnancy.

Unfortunately, all secondaries have similar problems, though the degreee will vary. It's only if you think your dd will be able to cope with the intense pressure that grammar pupils are under that I'd recommend it.

Grammar schools are 'selective' schools, so 5% pass rate would, depending on the number of local grammar schools, be about right. It's not necessarily a 'low' number. Also LEA schools are there to educate all children, not tutor them for the 11+. Private schools get a higher pass rate as they do often focus on tutoring for 11+, have smaller class sizes to do this in and are selective to start with, for example, not many private schools would take children with behavioral issues...

Essex has far fewer grammar schools than Kent, so that's how it becomes 'super selective' and the 3% get thru and this will vary from region to region depending on the number of grammar school places available.

Mumblechum and others I agree - most schools have similar problems, just because it's a grammar doesn't mean there are less problems and eating disorders are often more prevalent in girls grammar schools.

BUT - why would a school lie about their figures? What could they gain? It's quite difficult (impossible) to change the figures and manipulate them. Just check out the Ofsted website and pages if you're concerned and see if you can talk to other parents about how they're finding the school.

Bullying, drugs and teenage pregnancy can happen in all types of school - you're kidding yourself if you think they don't. Probably a greater proportion of teenage girls who get pregnant in private schools choose to abort the baby rather than have it, but it doesnt alter the fact that sex goes on!

In my area there are no grammer school for 40 miles. I am puzzled by all the posts re 11+ and grammer schools. Are they referring to state (non paying) grammer school or private. Just wondering as I thought state grammers where abolished in the 60/70's. We only have state comps. Can someone put me right?