Eltham College, selective school with A* %39 GCSe results?

[larriss]

Hi all,

We will move to South East London next year Currently my kids are in state school in East London. But we will try to move them to the independent school when we move to SE. I am trying to find out which school we should apply in September and which area we need to move. We have twins in year 1 at the moment. So in September 2024 they will be year 3. . We moved to UK 5 years ago so I am not sure about “single sex schools”? All most all our friends here recommended us single sex school for our girls. I searched online as well, articles, reports also states that girls do better in girls only school especially in secondary stage.
My daughters are doing great in their schools right now, they are well above average in all subjects. When we practice for 7+ at home they also do amazing. I do believe they can even get a offer from all of the schools. But that doesn’t mean they need to be in top academic school but we will pay a lot of money more than 10 years so I would like to make sure that it is worth to go. Also, we need to move before December 2023 so I would like to decide which area we will be moving. In addition, as my twins are small I don’t prefer them to travel by school bus - I am planning to drive so I need to make sure I live close to one of these schools:

I liked JAGS - results, facilities looks great. With school bus girls needs to travel almost a hour (twice). I heard some girls had health issues because of the pressure of school. Is that true?

Allenys - results and facilities are so similar to JAGS but its coed. If it was for me, I think I would choose this school for me:)
Meanwhile I am not sure about the Dulwich area - never visited before. Is it nice place to live with kids?

Eltham College - they say its selective because its starts at year 3 (7+) nevertheless exam results are not good for selective school. A* %39 -
I can not imagine if their entry point was nursery (3+)- but still not sure if we need to consider it. Please let me know if you recommend it. Plus, we are not Christian. Do you its going to be a problem for our girls? Also the bad presses about this school, are they true story?
I visited Eltham/Mottingham area I didn’t like it a lot. Am I wrong?

Colfes - its coed, big school with large green space. But when I visited I didn’t like the Junior side of the school however senior side was better. The disadvantage of this school is students needs to take 11+ exam to move to senior side. Its looks like it is a academic school but results also not so good when we consider that.

Blackheath High - smaller than other schools I think. Its girls only school. Entry point is 3+ and A* GCSE results are 34%. They say its not selective as girls in juniors can move to senior side automatically. But results are so similar with Colfes and Eltham College? - which they say they are more selective in 7+ and 11+?
I liked the Blackheath/Greenwich area. Green space, Greenwich park and Blackheath-Lewisham DLR is so close to city. (Transport is important for us my husband is working the city).

Colfes - its coed, big school with large green space. But when I visited I didn’t like the Junior side of the school however senior side was better. The disadvantage of this school is students needs to take 11+ exam to move to senior side. Its looks like it is a academic school but results also not so good when we consider that.
Colfes school in Lee, also close to the Blackheath.

What I don’t understand is how come Eltham College is more selective school but results are so similar to Colfes or Blackheath? I really want to know if it is worth to move Eltham? Also when I checked the official website of Eltham College and Colfes. Colfes results was better in 2022 but in league tables Eltham College always above from Colfes. Do you know the reason?

I will be so pleased if you let me know WWYD.

Thank you so much.

@Scotcheggsontoast - nobody is expecting straight 9s for all children in all subjects, but they are expecting significant added value commensurate with the 20k plus price tag, soon to potentially be £24k (if VAT is added). If the grades are pretty much the same, where is the added value?

On the one hand, these types of schools are telling us the cohort is selective at 11 plus (in which case, one would assume selective meaning a child would also pass the Kent or Bexley test), on the other hand the grades are not much better or the same, or worse in some cases than the grammars (supposedly equally selective). Because I would not want my children to do Combined Sciences or get a 7 in French, if they had been learning it since age 7.

How many children at Colfe’s who join age 4, would achieve KS2 SATS greater depth across the board? We do not know because I don’t think these schools track progress properly. I don’t like the lack of data on the children.

So if my child is intelligent, greater depth at KS2 SATS, would pass Kent and Bexley, what is the point in sending them to Eltham or Colfe’s at 11 plus? Maybe if they would not pass those tests it may make sense. Otherwise, I do not see the point.

A better way to compare state and private schools is not by looking at the grades alone, but by considering the whole educational experience. Grades depend more on the child’s ability and family background than on the type of school. The learning environment, the confidence boost, and the extracurricular activities are also important factors that are hard to measure directly.

@Intergalacticcatharsis
You keep saying the results are not much better / the same / worse, but that does not seem to be true.

Grammar schools like Chis and Sid and Bexley Grammar are getting 17.6% grade 9s, Eltham college is 30% and Colfes 36%... That seems better to me? Same with the 9-7 category.

As @BNP says, not only are the grades better, but the whole experience has the potential to be too, extracurricular, confidence building, facilities etc.

There are lots of reasons people with bright kids would choose Eltham / Colfes!

It's not just a matter of coming out with X number of grade 9s. Although it seems they have that covered too.

Colfes don't do SATS, but considering nearly all the juniors go up to then create half the senior school, they have an incentive to make sure they are keeping up, and as the senior results are good the junior school must be doing a pretty good job too, unless all the new seniors that come in are super super intelligent and are the ones getting all the 9s.

Put it this way I was one of those bright kids that got higher level SATS, went to grammar etc, and then came out with pretty mediocre results, having not really enjoyed the whole experience. I'm almost certain I would have done better having been in a class of 20 rather than 30, more pastoral care, better facilities and opportunities, more 121 guidance etc. Bright kids can easily coast along at a grammar, whereas at a private I think they have more resources to get the best out of each pupil.

We haven’t even gotten into the university debate yet @Scotcheggsontoast

Anecdotally, children from private schools are increasingly having to achieve higher grades to get into Russell Group universities on competitive courses. If you want to study law as a private school child, it can be difficult. It is not just Oxbridge that is harder now.

I am not one bit sold on private schools.

A privileged, intelligent child living in London or Outer London has a ton of extracurricular opportunities on their doorstep, available at a fraction of the cost of private school.
The privilege comes from the intelligence and the parents, not the school.

In any event, schools such as St Olave’s, Wilson’s School, Skinner’s in Tunbridge Wells are better than those 2 schools, in all regards, in my humble opinion.

The same rising expectations that private schools face for Oxbridge admission with context taken into account also apply to the grammar schools above, particularly for those children from advantaged backgrounds.

@BNP - those schools have much higher Oxbridge entry rates and more competitive courses on their leavers’ list than either Colfe’s or Eltham.

Pay up and be stuck with a humanities course seems to be the private school issue at the moment.
Or save the cash for uni/house deposit and study whatever you like.

Super selective grammar schools such as st Olaves (where nearly 100% of pupils are achieving 9 in physics) are probably the best fit for a super bright child. But that is a very small percentage of children. The normal grammars don't achieve better results.

Are you talking about contextualised offers' in terms of non private school pupils being accepted with lower grades to universities? In which case, those offers usually only apply to children in schools which are in the bottom 20%, were not talking grammars or even average comps.

Considering such a large percentage of oxbridge is private school pupils, compared to how many are privately educated I'd say it's a long way to go before you can convincingly say it's less likely to get in having gone to a private school than state, all things considered.

If you are rich enough to pay for private school, clear the uni debt and provide a 20 per cent plus house deposit for your children, then private school may make sense.

If you are not, I really do not think the maths stacks up anymore.

And if you are super rich, then you send them to Westminster and an Ivy League.

If they need extra help, then you send them to these lovely schools with extra attention.

If they are driven and intelligent I do not see the point.

@Scotcheggsontoast - I fail to see how those grammar schools harmed you if you are now so successful and on the ball? Perhaps a minor amount of discontent builds resilience, rather than too much fluffiness, what if it drove you? It helped you achieve at university and beyond? Because you can now afford private school for your own DC?
Perhaps the mediocre results you describe drove you in the first place?

“Super selective grammar schools such as st Olaves (where nearly 100% of pupils are achieving 9 in physics) are probably the best fit for a super bright child. But that is a very small percentage of children. The normal grammars don't achieve better results.”

Like I said, I do not think the child has to be “super bright”. Two grammar parents, both on the ball themselves and no life problems/some time, and small amounts of educational input over the years (plus no additional needs such as dyslexia) and it is perfectly achievable.

'If they need extra help, then you send them to these lovely schools with extra attention.'

I don't think it's about 'needing extra help'. I think it's about really getting the best out of your child.

For me, if you can afford private, and the alternative is one of the normal grammars, I don't think it makes sense to choose the grammar. These schools are selecting the top pupils but yet only achieving 17.6% grade 9s at GCSE.

Yes an extremely motivated child will probably do well anywhere. But for most people will fairly averagely motivated bright children, a private is the best bet for getting the most out of them.

Uni debt - let them clear this themselves, student loan is income linked and gets wiped after 40 years anyway.

Yes would help if there's still money left over for house deposit, granted.

Extracurricular, yes you can ferry them around to these after school etc, but for working parents having it all covered at school is a huge bonus, also I think kids get tired doing loads at weekend and after school especially with all the homework.

I live in one of the areas mentioned and the grammar school here is not a happy place and gets unimpressive results (worse than the local private non-selective).

Private school is a very different experience to grammar school, a grammar is not a free private school for the cleverest, it’s a completely different educational experience and OP has been clear she’s looking for an independent school.

OP apologies I don’t have personal knowledge about of the schools mentioned but wish you the best of luck with your lovely twins.

Good luck with the application! Hope your DC gets in. They definitely seem like very very academic environments which will really suit some pupils.

I mean it didn't actively make me less intelligent, and in the end I went down an art route rather than academic anyway. So wasn't the end of the world.

But I do want better for my child, and as @Hazil says the more well rounded experience you can get from private (as well as being backed up by good academics) really appeals and I think would be more enjoyable.

What I meant was that school acceptance rate reflects how selective the entrance is. It is only your DCs ability matters. If we compare students with the same ability, subject and grade, the contextual admission gives an advantage to the lower achieving comp student with a disadvantaged background. It is harder and harder for students from high achieving grammar or private schools to get in.

“@BNP It is harder and harder for students from high achieving grammar or private schools to get in.”

And this is why I would rather save any money so they can go study in Europe or Ireland if need be. I don’t see much future in England at the moment for middle class high achievers anymore. Pay through your nose in taxes etc., have your children not get a good state education or uni education or healthcare, without a big fight. I want them to have enough financial backing to go elsewhere, if need be. It is not a coincidence that talented youngsters are looking at opportunities elsewhere now. Luckily we have a EU passport via a maternal grandparent.

@Scotcheggsontoast - “Uni debt - let them clear this themselves, student loan is income linked and gets wiped after 40 years anyway.”

Please be aware that it is around 9% extra in tax now. https://www.gov.uk/repaying-your-student-loan/what-you-pay
Plus note the horrendous interest rates.

So with the marginal tax rates as bad as they are around the 100k mark and the fiscal drag, I do not think huge uni debt is worth it either. Privilege is now “asset privilege”, not income privilege. If you are on PAYE and doing well as a young person and want to live in London and have a big student debt, your take home is unlikely very good.

Therefore, no debt plus house deposit makes far more sense to me. That is the real privilege these days, in England, as the current tax system stands.

Fair enough.

I think if you're going to wipe out most of your savings through going private, and it will leave you unable to help with house deposit etc, then it's probably not the most sensible choice.

But if that's not the case, and you can comfortably afford it, I think there are still good reasons/value added/benefits to choosing private.

Saying why would anyone choose private when the grammar schools get better results 1) just isn't true (apart from the super selective grammars), and 2) there are also lots of other benefits to choosing them that aren't results lead.

I thought we had concluded that at places like Colfe’s and Eltham the student body itself is more diverse than in a grammar, with a mix of children who could have qualified for superselective grammar and those who would not even have passed the Bexley or Kent test.
The unknown factor is whether the superselective kids bump the results up or not with their strings of 9s.
We cannot really compare because the subjects taken tend to differ as well (both iGCSE and Combined Sciences) and the data coming out of private schools is different. We cannot ask for a Freedom of Information Request, for example. So we do not really know for sure. As private schools do not measure progress per pupil like state schools, who knows.

Yes that is true. I'm sure there is a more diverse mix, half have been there since 3/4 years old, so although they do take the 11+ to get to seniors and a small amount are weeded out, the majority do go up. (At Eltham they take them at 7 and then no test to go up to seniors) So I'm sure there are some there that wouldn't have passed 11+. But unless they are taking only extremely bright children at 11 to make up the other half of the seniors, I do not think they would get the end results they do if it was purely a result of being bumped up by those additional pupils.

“But unless they are taking only extremely bright children at 11 to make up the other half of the seniors, I do not think they would get the end results they do if it was purely a result of being bumped up by those additional pupil.”

That is not what I meant at 11 plus though. Because it is hard for schools like Colfe’s or Eltham to attract the very very brightest at 11 plus, because those kids can choose superselective grammar or superselective independent. That is why schools like Colfe’s and Eltham still give those kids proper scholarships. The superselective independents did away with proper scholarships without being means tested for that reason, they don’t need to do it. They can give big bursaries to very bright poorer children.

What I meant is that in all likelihood some of the 4 year olds joining are actually really clever with educationally motivated parents and they just end up staying because it is easier to do so. However, I question whether it was financially wise to do so with that type of child. I always assumed private school makes kids happier, at least. However, I read this UCL study which disagrees with that premise. https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2022/apr/state-school-pupils-just-happy-their-lives-private-school-counterparts
It does conclude that post pandemic the situation might be different and there is a real push in private schools, it seems, towards mental health awareness and pastoral support. So that may be where the real value is added.

Yeh I mean the ones joining at 3/4 probably did so with the intent to stay the whole way through anyway. I think it would still be clear coming up to year 3 or so if you had super selective St Olaves material, and at that point you could move them to a prep school and then start preparing to do the super selective tests, if that's what you thought was best for them at that point?

Personally, unless I had an exceedingly bright and academic child, I think the level that Colfes / Eltham are achieving would be good enough to keep them on their toes, plus all the other private school benefits.

“Personally, unless I had an exceedingly bright and academic child, I think the level that Colfes / Eltham are achieving would be good enough to keep them on their toes, plus all the other private school benefits.”

Maybe, but it won’t be worth £300,000 plus (14 years of school, likely to rise with fee hikes and possible VAT). It is a better investment to max out the child tax free ISA every year (£9000) and invest it for them to put towards their university education, for example. And maybe even start on the Junior SIPP (£3600 per year). The rest on tutors and extra curricular. If you combine that with a great state primary school and a grammar, I am sure most children would be very grateful down the line.
Obviously, if you are a multimillionaire with a huge salary it is another matter.